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10-10-2013, 06:36 PM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by jogiba Quote
Since the minimum is one frame every 2 seconds that would mean each frame is a three shot processed HDR JPEG so it would take three shots every 2 seconds for up to 99 hours. So if you wanted to shoot the maximum 4K HDR movie interval timelapse you could shoot for 99 hours @ one HDR frame every 2 seconds that will amount to 178,200 processed HDR JPEG frames that would give you a 49min 30 sec 4K HDR timelapse @60FPS. BTW the K-3 shutter is rated for 200,000 shutter releases so don't try for the maximum 99 hour 4K HDR movie interval timelapse.
Lucky that movie timelapse doesn't fire the shutter when it captures a frame, then!

Can you even do HDR in movie mode?

10-11-2013, 05:25 AM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dave L Quote
Lucky that movie timelapse doesn't fire the shutter when it captures a frame, then!

Can you even do HDR in movie mode ?
So exactly how does the K-3 capture an HDR timelapse movie in 2 second to 1 hour intervals if it does not fire the shutter ?

10-11-2013, 09:41 AM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
On film, yes.

But the metering system in a digital camera may potentially do more than that. A digital image isn't fully baked at the point of shutter click, even in camera.

The final shutter 'click' may certainly force the camera to execute a particular aperture, shutter speed and ISO. However, the settings recorded at 'click' time are based on a calculation derived from data continuously fed to the camera CPU from all 77 (or more) segments of the metering system. You can see all this data recorded in the EXIF. Since data was recorded from every metering segment at the 'click' point, there seems little to stop the camera making post-capture selective adjustments (within bounds - ie subject to sensor DR) to the saved image based on the camera's full library of 77 (or more) EV readings taken from the scene at the 'click' moment. Theoretically you could even do this for every pixel or line of pixels on the sensor, as a recent patent highlights.
But that is just post processing, even if it is done in the camera. It does not in any way affect the data as it comes off the sensor. The data coming off the sensor depends only on how much light has hit a particular pixel and what the amplifier gain was set to (the ISO). The amplifier gain cannot be varied during the readout.

So what you have is a raw image which records exactly what light fell onto the sensor and then the camera can post process that data. It can create prtty HDR effects but it cannot recover the level of detail that a true DR shot can because that detail would not exist at all in the data read off the sensor. The three picture way of doing it actually adds to the bit-depth of the image. If you have a +3/0/-3 set then you are effectively getting an 18 bit image from the three 14 bit images (in theory 20 bits but not in practice). In other words you have more to work with.

It all depends on what you are trying to achieve with HDR. If it is an artistic effect it is one thing but if you want to capture an iage that has a dyamic range fr greaer than the actual dynamc rage of the sensor then multiple shots is the only way.

I am not saying that a sensor could not be built that would apply different amplifier gain to different groups of pixels (based on the results of a multi-K exposure meter). Such things do exist in prototype form and even in some one of a kind imaging systems but are still far from being implemented in mass produced sensors. The patent you mentioned being one example. Patenting an idea is one thing, and perhaps even building one off prototypes but designing one for mass production is a whole different thing.

We will eventually get such sensors but not just yet.
10-11-2013, 09:52 AM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dave L Quote
Lucky that movie timelapse doesn't fire the shutter when it captures a frame, then!

Can you even do HDR in movie mode?
I don't know about the K-3 but the K-30 does fire the shutter for each frame when recording a time lapse movie.


To do it without the mechanical shutter you would need to use the sensor in the electronic shutter mode, which is what video does at 30 (or I think even 60) frames per second. The problem is that electronic shutter has its drawbacks and you will generally get lower resolution and/or dynamic range and/or higher noise (especially dark current noise). Many P&S and bridge cameras use electronic shutter both for video as well as stills, but probably much less is expected of them in terms of IQ and the camera is much cheaper to make if you remove the mechanical shutter.

I think it would be a good idea if it were to be offered as an option that you could select (use mechanical shutter or not) but maybe they are reluctant to do that to avoid being judged by the lesser IQ that would result when using it.

I know that there is at least one Nikon SLR that gives the option of using electronic shutter (even for single stills). I don;t know which one but I do know it had a Fuji sensor. Fuji were something of a specialist in designing sensors specially optimised to function in electronic shutter mode.

10-11-2013, 04:33 PM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by lister6520 Quote
I don't know about the K-3 but the K-30 does fire the shutter for each frame when recording a time lapse movie.


To do it without the mechanical shutter you would need to use the sensor in the electronic shutter mode, which is what video does at 30 (or I think even 60) frames per second. The problem is that electronic shutter has its drawbacks and you will generally get lower resolution and/or dynamic range and/or higher noise (especially dark current noise). Many P&S and bridge cameras use electronic shutter both for video as well as stills, but probably much less is expected of them in terms of IQ and the camera is much cheaper to make if you remove the mechanical shutter.

I think it would be a good idea if it were to be offered as an option that you could select (use mechanical shutter or not) but maybe they are reluctant to do that to avoid being judged by the lesser IQ that would result when using it.

I know that there is at least one Nikon SLR that gives the option of using electronic shutter (even for single stills). I don;t know which one but I do know it had a Fuji sensor. Fuji were something of a specialist in designing sensors specially optimised to function in electronic shutter mode.
Ah OK, then I defer to you and jogiba.

If implemented in a similar way to K-30, the 99 hour limit would presumably only apply to the longer timelapse intervals, unlike what the the original poster assumed. Imaging Resource K-30 review Pentax K-30 Review - Video says:
QuoteQuote:
" The recording time can run anywhere from twelve seconds to 99 hours, although the upper limit varies with the selected interval, and so it's not possible to configure an interval movie of more than a couple of thousand frames."
Which means if it applies to the K-3 that none of us will be doing timelapse videos more than 2 or 3 minutes long when played, as I had hoped that we could - nor will we want to do many of them as they will eat up shutter actuations.

Very disappointing, if true, as I was hoping for an electronic shutter mode for doing many loooong timelapse movies.

Last edited by Dave L; 10-11-2013 at 04:41 PM.
10-12-2013, 03:13 AM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dave L Quote
Ah OK, then I defer to you and jogiba.

If implemented in a similar way to K-30, the 99 hour limit would presumably only apply to the longer timelapse intervals, unlike what the the original poster assumed. Imaging Resource K-30 review Pentax K-30 Review - Video says:
Which means if it applies to the K-3 that none of us will be doing timelapse videos more than 2 or 3 minutes long when played, as I had hoped that we could - nor will we want to do many of them as they will eat up shutter actuations.

Very disappointing, if true, as I was hoping for an electronic shutter mode for doing many loooong timelapse movies.
'A couple of thousand frames' viewed at 25 frames per second is almost an hour and a half, which would seems like more than enough to me. After all, will anyone actually watch one uninterrupted time lapse movie more than a few minutes long?
10-12-2013, 04:59 AM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by lister6520 Quote
'A couple of thousand frames' viewed at 25 frames per second is almost an hour and a half, which would seems like more than enough to me. After all, will anyone actually watch one uninterrupted time lapse movie more than a few minutes long?
25fps x 60sec = 1,500 frames per minute or 90,000 frames per hour.
10-12-2013, 05:13 AM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by lister6520 Quote
'A couple of thousand frames' viewed at 25 frames per second is almost an hour and a half, which would seems like more than enough to me. After all, will anyone actually watch one uninterrupted time lapse movie more than a few minutes long?
As jogiba says below. 2000 frames = 80 seconds @ 25fps or if it's a bit more than 2,000 frames in reality and people are tempted to drop to 15 fps to squeeze more time, 2 or 3 minutes as I said.

QuoteOriginally posted by jogiba Quote
25fps x 60sec = 1,500 frames per minute or 90,000 frames per hour.
Yep. Disappointing if that's how it is (and limited to 2,000 frames roughly) and mechanical shuttering.


Last edited by Dave L; 10-12-2013 at 07:57 AM.
10-12-2013, 07:19 AM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by jogiba Quote
25fps x 60sec = 1,500 frames per minute or 90,000 frames per hour.
Oops, looks like I need to get myself a new calculator
10-12-2013, 07:36 AM   #25
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Well the timelapse in the K-01 (maybe not related to this future) takes images at set times like every 1 second, or 5 or 10...... Then processes those images with 5 frames in one second, bet every frame triple in it (just three times the same image) and plays it at 15 fps. This for a maximum off 2100 images taken.

So this looks like a bit the same with the max off 2000 images.
11-13-2013, 03:51 AM   #26
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4K video has nothing to do with HDR or taking 3 frames for every shot they use the 14bit Raw files to produce the video rather than the more usual 8bit JPEGs. This will give you videos with much more data and therefore much more detail.

Every time you add 1 to the bit depth you double the amount of data in the image file, the 7 bit increase from 8bits to 14bits doubles the data available in the frame captured 7 times, these may look like HDR, and will certainly have a wider dynamic range, but the camera doesn't need to take 3 frames for every frame of video.

Some Canon DSLR's can capture 4K video, the problem is in the processing, no current device can display 4K Raw video directly it has to be processed before it can be viewed, just as Raw stills have to be post processed, this happens inside the K3 and is quite involved. This speaks volumes for the processor inside the K3 and can only be done with fast processors and Ram.

Chris
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