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10-09-2013, 08:48 PM   #46
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
One of the possible reasons the Pentax 16MP sensor is applying NR to RAW files at ISO 1600 and up and NONE of the other Sony made sensors are doing it might be because Pentax/Hoya worked on the design of that sensor.
Ok. I have no basis for knowing or not knowing the answer. However, in all the years I've been here this is the very first time I've ever heard anyone say suggest Pentax might have had design input in a Sony sensor. Having electrical engineers who wring more out of the same sensor than anyone else does - sure, I read that here as recently as last week.

I suppose Adam will try to clear this up tomorrow.

I still don't understand what magic Ricoh possesses that would make Sony behave any differently than they did toward Hoya unless everyone assumes the K-3 and successors will sell 1MM units instead of a few hundred thousand.

10-09-2013, 08:51 PM   #47
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Ok. I have no basis for knowing or not knowing the answer. However, in all the years I've been here this is the very first time I've ever heard anyone say suggest Pentax might have had design input in a Sony sensor. Having electrical engineers who wring more out of the same sensor than anyone else does - sure, I read that here as recently as last week.

I suppose Adam will try to clear this up tomorrow.

I still don't understand what magic Ricoh possesses that would make Sony behave any differently than they did toward Hoya unless everyone assumes the K-3 and successors will sell 1MM units instead of a few hundred thousand.
If Olympus can have Sony make sensors specifically for M4/3 then Pentax shouldn't have any problem. The cost of sensors have come way down in the last three years.
10-09-2013, 08:52 PM   #48
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
I still don't understand what magic Ricoh possesses that would make Sony behave any differently than they did toward Hoya unless everyone assumes the K-3 and successors will sell 1MM units instead of a few hundred thousand.
I'm not sure what is supposed to a problem in this case: it's same as what happened in 2010 with K5's 16MP chip. Pentax used it in K5, and Nikon in D7000, and both cameras were introduced at the same time.

That Pentax must wait some 6 months / 9 months / 12 months is just an endlessly perpetuated myth, that has taken an independent life and is plaguing Pentax community.
10-09-2013, 10:10 PM   #49
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If exact pixel count is an indication of anything I bet K-3 sensor is different from D7100 and D5200. K-3's files have 6016x4000 while Nikon's 6000x4000. Those 16 pixels make think we have a new sensor.

10-09-2013, 10:17 PM   #50
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Maybe, just maybe, Sony and Toshiba sensors are the same, Sony sells a sensor factory to Toshiba, with technology transfert in 2011 :
Image Sensors World: Toshiba and Sony Execute Manufacturing Transfer Agreement
10-09-2013, 10:20 PM   #51
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QuoteOriginally posted by disya2 Quote
If exact pixel count is an indication of anything I bet K-3 sensor is different from D7100 and D5200. K-3's files have 6016x4000 while Nikon's 6000x4000. Those 16 pixels make think we have a new sensor.
Well, there's a fairly in-depth discussion on the other forum about this exact thing, and the consensus seems to be that this doesn't actually prove anything. Hopefully, Adam will find out for sure in another day or so.
10-09-2013, 10:31 PM   #52
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QuoteOriginally posted by Couscousdelight Quote
Maybe, just maybe, Sony and Toshiba sensors are the same, Sony sells a sensor factory to Toshiba, with technology transfert in 2011 :
Image Sensors World: Toshiba and Sony Execute Manufacturing Transfer Agreement

I think this pretty Much explains it;

Quote"

Toshiba and Sony announced that they have executed definitive agreements based on the non-binding memorandum of understanding signed on December 24, 2010 between Toshiba and Sony for the transfer from Toshiba to Sony of semiconductor fabrication equipment located at Nagasaki Technology Center operated by Nagasaki Semiconductor Manufacturing Corporation ("NSM"), a joint venture of Toshiba (owned 60%) and Sony (owned 40%).
10-09-2013, 10:46 PM   #53
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QuoteOriginally posted by DogLover Quote
Well, there's a fairly in-depth discussion on the other forum about this exact thing, and the consensus seems to be that this doesn't actually prove anything. Hopefully, Adam will find out for sure in another day or so.
I should have an answer for you on Saturday.

As you said, the image size is not necessarily indicative of anything, as the effective pixel count is usually substantially greater so that the camera has a few extra rows of pixels to use for processing (this allows for proper demosaicing along the edges of the recorded frame). Perhaps Pentax chose to add a few extra rows to the final image because they were confident that they looked good. And if both the Sony and Toshiba have the same total pixel count, then there isn't much we can do until we get an official answer.


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10-09-2013, 10:52 PM   #54
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QuoteOriginally posted by Adam Quote
Nowhere did I say I knew who the manufacturer was for certain, nor did I confirm this spec. Perhaps I wasn't clear in the way things were phrased.
As a matter of fact, right after you made the original Toshiba statement I copy-pasted your post on our Dutch forum:

QuoteQuote:
It's been confirmed that it's the same Toshiba sensor as in the D71/5200 for those who were wondering.
So I thought that it was simply a fact that the K-3 uses a Toshiba sensor. After all, I should believe Adam, shouldn't I?

It seems that the original post I quoted above (and which was found here: https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-news-rumors/239023-pentax-k-3-offi...ml#post2533688) now has been edited and reads:

QuoteQuote:
I believe that it's been confirmed that it's the same Toshiba sensor as in the D71/5200 for those who were wondering, based on what I've seen on other sites.
But who cares, it's the performance of the sensor that counts!
10-09-2013, 10:54 PM   #55
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QuoteOriginally posted by Asahiflex Quote
So I thought that it was simply a fact that the K-3 uses a Toshiba sensor. After all, I should believe Adam, shouldn't I?
I read some DPR thread that said it was just before posting that comment, then I updated it shortly afterward seeing that it was again just speculation. Nothing I post on the forum should be seen as official info unless it's clearly marked as such. Perhaps I should create a personal account that doesn't say "admin" on it for that purpose

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10-09-2013, 10:59 PM   #56
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QuoteOriginally posted by Adam Quote
I read some DPR thread that said it was just before posting that comment, then I updated it shortly afterward seeing that it was again just speculation. Nothing I post on the forum should be seen as official info unless it's clearly marked as such. Perhaps I should create a personal account that doesn't say "admin" on it for that purpose
Good idea! Please name the account "Eve"

Never the less, I'm waiting for firmware 1.0 RAW (DNG) samples to see what the K-3 is capable of. I have no reasons to believe that the K-3's output is worse than that of the K-5
10-09-2013, 11:00 PM   #57
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
ChipWorks
These are the only guys to trust on the issue of who makes the K-3 sensor.
When I see a image supplied by ChipWorks of 'Toshiba' or 'Sony' stamped on the sensor somewhere, then I will be convinced.
10-09-2013, 11:04 PM   #58
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QuoteOriginally posted by Asahiflex Quote
Good idea! Please name the account "Eve"
Lol!

QuoteOriginally posted by Asahiflex Quote
Never the less, I'm waiting for firmware 1.0 RAW (DNG) samples to see what the K-3 is capable of. I have no reasons to believe that the K-3's output is worse than that of the K-5
I'm sure they won't be, especially when scaled to 16Mp. But only time will tell!

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10-09-2013, 11:44 PM   #59
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Ironically the top story in petapixel now is about how open Pentax has been with the k-3 sensor technology and how others should follow its lead.

http://petapixel.com/2013/10/09/attention-camera-marketing-departments-tell-sensor/
10-10-2013, 03:34 AM   #60
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
These are the only guys to trust on the issue of who makes the K-3 sensor.
When I see a image supplied by ChipWorks of 'Toshiba' or 'Sony' stamped on the sensor somewhere, then I will be convinced.
I think Pentax is honest with where they get their sensors. Nikon is the issue since they need to have the appearance of having "special, made only for Nikon" sensors. Even if Sony/Toshiba supplies 95 percent of the tech and owns the fab where Nikon sensors are made, Nikon insists that the sensors are theirs. Pentax doesn't have any particular reason to hide where they get their sensors, since everyone knows they don't own a sensor fab.
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