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10-10-2013, 01:29 PM   #121
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QuoteOriginally posted by kenyee Quote
Why can't people w/ the preproduction sensor just pop the mirror up in sensor cleaning mode and take a macro photo of it? If it looks like the Toshiba one, it's Toshiba. The amp pattern is probably different between Toshiba and Sony sensors...
Some K-3 preproductiom models may have the next gen Sony's sensor, but some may have one issued by Toshiba. Some models may also have updated Toshiba's sensor, with banding remedied (tell me which company would continue to produce provenly wrong product).

The whole point of pre-production models is to gather last minute data and often, most valuable data that smoothens up kinks, decides upon final parts that go into the camera.

10-10-2013, 01:45 PM - 1 Like   #122
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There's an awful lot of ultracrepidarianism going on in these forums, no wonder there is so much misinformation on the web.
10-10-2013, 01:48 PM   #123
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
tell me which company would continue to produce provenly wrong product
Canon? All their sensors had banding issues and poor dynamic range for years.
10-10-2013, 01:49 PM   #124
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Guys, wouldn't it be simple to ask Frank (who kindly did the hands-on K-3 preview https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-k-3/239050-pentax-k-3-hands-sample-photos.html) to:
  • do a lens-cap shot
and then see
  • if it shows banding --> it's a Toshiba
  • if it lacks banding --> it's a Sony
simple, hey?

10-10-2013, 01:50 PM   #125
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ISO51200 ultra small sample has visible banding.

10-10-2013, 01:58 PM   #126
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
Some K-3 preproductiom models may have the next gen Sony's sensor, but some may have one issued by Toshiba. Some models may also have updated Toshiba's sensor
Errr...doubt it. That makes no sense.
Sensor differences would include
- different sizes
- different pinouts
- different ways to read data out
- different data formatting

I've worked on hardware designs before..you don't have exact pinout/electrical matches that often unless they're standards like memory cards/chips and even then there are variances that may require firmware changes...
10-10-2013, 02:07 PM   #127
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Frank does not have the K-3 anymore
10-10-2013, 02:17 PM   #128
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QuoteOriginally posted by sledger Quote
There's an awful lot of ultracrepidarianism going on in these forums, no wonder there is so much misinformation on the web.
Hey! Lets just keep our misinformation local.

10-10-2013, 02:42 PM   #129
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QuoteOriginally posted by kenyee Quote
Errr...doubt it. That makes no sense.
Sensor differences would include
- different sizes
- different pinouts
- different ways to read data out
- different data formatting

I've worked on hardware designs before..you don't have exact pinout/electrical matches that often unless they're standards like memory cards/chips and even then there are variances that may require firmware changes...
By updated sensor I meant a brand new sensor codeveloped by Toshiba. Not one in D7100.
In any case, I meant that preproduction K-3s may be testing new sensors by both manufacturers.
That is in contrast to people believing Ricoh will use older sensors, either by Sony or Toshiba, for some reason.

However, preproduction saga is over and production models do employ brand new Sonys.
10-10-2013, 02:49 PM   #130
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QuoteOriginally posted by Adam Quote
If you can point me to where on the homepage this was stated, I will take a look at be sure not to make such a slip in the future.
Adam, I do apologize. It seems you have been a bit more cautious in your wording on the homepage and then everything should be fine (although, you did edit it too w/o notice). Anyway, IMHO there are now enough words spent on the issue.

Back to topic, let me speculate a bit about the possible technological diferences between a Toshiba-made and a Sony-made sensor in the K-3. Maybe dosdan has more about it.

Sony uses an embedded column-parallel ADC, which are counters and comparators against a common ramp voltage. Which is why these chips produce no banding. There can't be gain variation between lines.

Toshiba is speculated ( e.g., here: Nikon Hacker • View topic - Nikon Cams with Sony Sensor utilize Column ADC ) to embed a few more conventional ADCs right on chip, providing an all digital read-out protocol (LVDS) like Sony does. Both, Sony and Toshiba, embed the ADC on chip, avoiding most of the read-out noise.

But embedding several ADCs on chip would still leave gain variation between channels, aka banding. One source says it can compute the ADC working frequency from the banding. It may be that column-parallel ADCs with a common voltage ramp is Sony-patented technology. So, everybody else is left with banding (which DxO does *NOT* measure).

This short speculation may explain why so many people do care if the chip is Sony or Toshiba. Additional to banding, the Toshiba sensors seem to color shift when pushing by many EV steps. So, the Toshiba chips may be a bit harder to use in an isoless fashion than Sony chips are.
10-10-2013, 02:50 PM   #131
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QuoteOriginally posted by jaad75 Quote
ISO51200 ultra small sample has visible banding.
Ah Gaaaaawwwddd ...
10-10-2013, 02:57 PM   #132
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QuoteOriginally posted by Adam Quote
Well, I take it as a compliment that people think I'm a Pentax god or something like that. Yes I receive a lot of information, but I wouldn't recommend making any assumptions based on what people (myself included) write on forums. Bring the details out in an editorial fashion and it's a different story
With all respect Adam, you thoroughly had me fooled, due to the words chosen: "it's been confirmed that...", and not citing the source here, of course one is going to assume that you were speaking on inside information. Why otherwise would you make such a statement? Your position as the administrator of this website does not make you a Pentax god, and it does not oblige you to take extra care with personal statements on this forum, but people are likely to take your words more seriously, as I did. This is not a bad thing, as other sources react to the discussions arising from such a statement, but I really don't understand even statements such as "is likely to be the same toshiba chip found in", when previewing a brand new release. Why not assume that anything is possible, and refrain from any sort of speculation on the origin of something as essential as the sensor to a camera, until there is at least some real and concrete inducement to assume anything at all?

Chris
10-10-2013, 02:58 PM   #133
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QuoteOriginally posted by kenyee Quote
I've worked on hardware designs before..you don't have exact pinout/electrical matches
True and I agree that it is unlikely.
But not impossible.
Pentax has an advantage here: the sensors mount onto a tiny daughterboard (connected to main board via a layouted flex cable) to go into the SR shift motor. They could have made several versions of said daughterboard.
10-10-2013, 03:16 PM   #134
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QuoteOriginally posted by sledger Quote
There's an awful lot of ultracrepidarianism going on in these forums
I've never heard that word before. Fortunately I confirmed its existence.

I can't even pronounce it, but I feel dirty trying. It is a good dirty!
10-10-2013, 03:35 PM   #135
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omg this thread is self destructing, terminate terminate terminate!
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