For those Questioning the 1/180 flash sync speed

JinDesu · 10-23-2013, 06:56 PM

Originally posted by kricha6431

sorry, i am not confused, page 88 tin the K-3 Manual talks about using hss sync speed faster then 1/180

When people talk about flash sync faster than 1/180s, they are referring to standard flash sync, not high speed sync. High speed sync has other restrictions (such as much lower power) that some people do not like. These people see that Canon and Nikon have flash sync at 1/250s and therefore complain that Pentax is limited to 1/180s.

Again, there is a difference between standard flash sync and high speed sync.

jaad75 · 10-23-2013, 06:57 PM

Do you understand the difference between the regular and high speed sync mode?

derekkite · 10-23-2013, 07:00 PM

I'm not certain, but does it seem to suggest that if you have the Pentax flashes mounted, in Tv mode you could increase the shutter speed with the dial to above 1/180 and get HSS mode. I know you can set HSS mode in the flash unit, and set the shutter speed to what you want. It states specifically that with the built-in flash you can't set the shutter above 1/180

kricha6431 · 10-23-2013, 07:08 PM

Originally posted by JinDesu

When people talk about flash sync faster than 1/180s, they are referring to standard flash sync, not high speed sync. High speed sync has other restrictions (such as much lower power) that some people do not like. These people see that Canon and Nikon have flash sync at 1/250s and therefore complain that Pentax is limited to 1/180s.

Again, there is a difference between standard flash sync and high speed sync.

do you anywhere in any of my post say that there wasn't a difference? No Offence, but i never said there wasn't! I have only spoke of HSS Sync, and nothing else,

It seems some have mistaken my OP, where i only speak using a hss faster ther 1/180 of a 2nd, and no, x-sync is not the same.

JinDesu · 10-23-2013, 07:11 PM

Originally posted by kricha6431

do you anywhere in any of my post say that there wasn't a difference? No Offence, but i never said there wasn't! I have only spoke of HSS Sync, and nothing else,

It seems some have mistaken my OP, where i only speak using a hss faster ther 1/180 of a 2nd, and no, x-sync is not the same.

"My point is/was for this Post: People were complaing that on the Prior Cameras they couldn't set a faster sync speed speed then 1/180 of a 2nd"

They still can't. They can't set their standard sync faster than 1/180s. They weren't looking for HSS. I'm really lost by what you are looking to clarify here - people who were complaining about the sync speed before were referring specifically about standard sync speed. The memo on page 88 would mean nothing to those people, because again - they were looking for an increased standard sync speed.

kricha6431 · 10-23-2013, 07:16 PM

Originally posted by JinDesu

"My point is/was for this Post: People were complaing that on the Prior Cameras they couldn't set a faster sync speed speed then 1/180 of a 2nd"

They still can't. They can't set their standard sync faster than 1/180s. They weren't looking for HSS. I'm really lost by what you are looking to clarify here - people who were complaining about the sync speed before were referring specifically about standard sync speed. The memo on page 88 would mean nothing to those people, because again - they were looking for an increased standard sync speed.

My bad!

Catalana · 10-23-2013, 09:15 PM

There is a way to combine higher shutter speeds with a single burst flash at full power, but it does require the use of a HSS capable flash to trigger another slave flash.
It is called hyper-sync. The flash duration of the slave at full power has to be fairly low. For the Metz 48 AF-1 it is 1/125sec, and I know that my Yongnuo560 will work as well.
I haven't read the K-3 manual yet, but at dpreview, there was reference to the K-3's built-in flash having HSS capability, which then can be used to optically trigger the slave.

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-flashes-lighting-technique/180003-...ml#post2541689

Edit: It seems that the built-in flash for the K-3 is not HSS capable, but a dedicated hot shoe flash with HSS will do the trick.

Last edited by Catalana; 10-23-2013 at 09:55 PM. Reason: Error about K-3 feature

Cynog Ap Brychan · 10-23-2013, 09:33 PM

Realistically, with the latitude of RAW files and the availability of ND filters, how many can honestly say that they have lost a shot because the flash sync speed is 1/180 rather than 1/250? Bueller..... Bueller...? I'm just curious?

Heie · 10-23-2013, 10:14 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Cynog Ap Brychan

Realistically, with the latitude of RAW files and the availability of ND filters, how many can honestly say that they have lost a shot because the flash sync speed is 1/180 rather than 1/250? Bueller..... Bueller...? I'm just curious?

The ND's speak to outdoor strobe lighting to balance the artificial with ambient light. Yes, easily corrected w/ ND's and the DR of the K-5/K-30 series albeit with a bit more effort.

For me personally, and I'm sure I'm not alone - it's about freezing action at events. I've had quite a few blurry smiles, hand shakes, hugs, etc. at 1/180. There's nothing to be done about that other than a faster shutter speed, which, at the moment is not available using the regular sync speed. Wedding and event photographers will know exactly what I mean with this.

-Heie

Catalana · 10-23-2013, 11:47 PM

Once again, it can be done. The devil is in the details. My K-5 will not send a trigger signal to the hotshoe at a shutter speed over the "standard" sync speed,
unless a HSS enabled flash is mounted. Obviously the flash must also be Pentax compatible. The HSS flash (Metz 48 AF-1) by itself though, can only send a series of low power flashes,
which limits the effective distance. If I where to add a wide flash bracket and mount a YN560 set to S2 mode (optical trigger / ignoring pre-flash) and point the head of the HSS flash
at the sensor of the YN560, the YN560 can fire a full power burst. In my tests, I get no banding, even at 1/8000sec.
Exposure is manually controlled, either with aperture of shutter speed.
I've tried other configurations, but the above is the only one that works so far. It might look weird with two flashes mounted...

awaldram · 10-24-2013, 12:48 AM

Originally posted by Catalana

Once again, it can be done. The devil is in the details. My K-5 will not send a trigger signal to the hotshoe at a shutter speed over the "standard" sync speed,
unless a HSS enabled flash is mounted. Obviously the flash must also be Pentax compatible. The HSS flash (Metz 48 AF-1) by itself though, can only send a series of low power flashes,
which limits the effective distance. If I where to add a wide flash bracket and mount a YN560 set to S2 mode (optical trigger / ignoring pre-flash) and point the head of the HSS flash
at the sensor of the YN560, the YN560 can fire a full power burst. In my tests, I get no banding, even at 1/8000sec.
Exposure is manually controlled, either with aperture of shutter speed.
I've tried other configurations, but the above is the only one that works so far. It might look weird with two flashes mounted...

But this has the same disadvantage as HSS.?

If your flash delivers T.1 = 1/125 and your shutter is firing at 1/8000 then light on target = 1/64 of full output.

And as you need a HSS capable flash to do it I fail to see any advantage over just using HSS.

Catalana · 10-24-2013, 09:18 PM

Still thinking of a reply, but the devil is in the details....:-)

Alizarine · 10-24-2013, 10:09 PM

Originally posted by JinDesu

When people talk about flash sync faster than 1/180s, they are referring to standard flash sync, not high speed sync. High speed sync has other restrictions (such as much lower power) that some people do not like. These people see that Canon and Nikon have flash sync at 1/250s and therefore complain that Pentax is limited to 1/180s.

Again, there is a difference between standard flash sync and high speed sync.

+1 to this. also, HSS is only efficient on Pentax if the HSS flash is on the hotshoe. I'm not sure if the famed Cactus triggers enable wireless HSS~

awaldram · 10-24-2013, 10:17 PM

Originally posted by Alizarine

+1 to this. also, HSS is only efficient on Pentax if the HSS flash is on the hotshoe. I'm not sure if the famed Cactus triggers enable wireless HSS~

Would you explain what you mean.?

HSS is the same efficiency whether remote or local !

On/off hot shoe makes no difference at all to it's efficiency.

And no Cactus trigger to not allow HSS they are dumb cheap triggers.

Alizarine · 10-24-2013, 11:49 PM

Originally posted by awaldram

Would you explain what you mean.?

HSS is the same efficiency whether remote or local !

On/off hot shoe makes no difference at all to it's efficiency.

Well first off, using HSS reduces the effective power output and range of the flash. I have a Metz 58 AF-2, and I only go above 1/180s on it using P-TTL HSS. That means I'm limited to using it ONLY while mounted on the camera - resulting in a straight-on pop, with measurements done by the camera.

What i like about having higher STANDARD flash sync are effects like this (photo not mine, just saw it on the net, credit goes to the owner):

Having a higher standard flash sync allows you to use even manual flashes with a wider option for action shots. While some may argue that the effect can be achieved by using faster apertures on lenses and ND filters, some shots just really need higher shutter speeds. Of course, not everyone would use that... but then again not everyone wants video and manufacturers continue (and improve) to stick 'em in still cameras. It's all about having more options, and in cameras like the K-3, having more options in-camera is always better.

1/180s standard flash sync limits action shots to movement that can be captured efficiently at that speed. Mounting an HSS flash on the camera will help solve the problem, but ONLY if you use it within its effective distance covered - and the faster you go, the closer you have to be to keep the exposure evenly lit. In that case, to achieve the same look and feel and angle and field of view, you might have to change lenses, or add in continuous light (which is more expensive usually).

So in a nutshell, it puts a roadblock/obstacle early on in your "shooting options while using flash"

Originally posted by awaldram

And no Cactus trigger to not allow HSS they are dumb cheap triggers.

not sure if you've tried them but thanks for the info.

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10-23-2013, 06:56 PM	#16
JinDesu Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: New York City Photos: Gallery Posts: 5,638	Originally posted by kricha6431 sorry, i am not confused, page 88 tin the K-3 Manual talks about using hss sync speed faster then 1/180 When people talk about flash sync faster than 1/180s, they are referring to standard flash sync, not high speed sync. High speed sync has other restrictions (such as much lower power) that some people do not like. These people see that Canon and Nikon have flash sync at 1/250s and therefore complain that Pentax is limited to 1/180s. Again, there is a difference between standard flash sync and high speed sync.

10-23-2013, 06:57 PM	#17
jaad75 Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Cracow Posts: 457	Do you understand the difference between the regular and high speed sync mode?

10-23-2013, 07:00 PM	#18
derekkite Pentaxian Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Nelson B.C. Posts: 3,782	I'm not certain, but does it seem to suggest that if you have the Pentax flashes mounted, in Tv mode you could increase the shutter speed with the dial to above 1/180 and get HSS mode. I know you can set HSS mode in the flash unit, and set the shutter speed to what you want. It states specifically that with the built-in flash you can't set the shutter above 1/180

10-23-2013, 07:08 PM	#19
kricha6431 Forum Member Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Silsbee, TX Posts: 91 Original Poster	Originally posted by JinDesu When people talk about flash sync faster than 1/180s, they are referring to standard flash sync, not high speed sync. High speed sync has other restrictions (such as much lower power) that some people do not like. These people see that Canon and Nikon have flash sync at 1/250s and therefore complain that Pentax is limited to 1/180s. Again, there is a difference between standard flash sync and high speed sync. do you anywhere in any of my post say that there wasn't a difference? No Offence, but i never said there wasn't! I have only spoke of HSS Sync, and nothing else, It seems some have mistaken my OP, where i only speak using a hss faster ther 1/180 of a 2nd, and no, x-sync is not the same.

10-23-2013, 07:11 PM	#20
JinDesu Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: New York City Photos: Gallery Posts: 5,638	Originally posted by kricha6431 do you anywhere in any of my post say that there wasn't a difference? No Offence, but i never said there wasn't! I have only spoke of HSS Sync, and nothing else, It seems some have mistaken my OP, where i only speak using a hss faster ther 1/180 of a 2nd, and no, x-sync is not the same. "My point is/was for this Post: People were complaing that on the Prior Cameras they couldn't set a faster sync speed speed then 1/180 of a 2nd" They still can't. They can't set their standard sync faster than 1/180s. They weren't looking for HSS. I'm really lost by what you are looking to clarify here - people who were complaining about the sync speed before were referring specifically about standard sync speed. The memo on page 88 would mean nothing to those people, because again - they were looking for an increased standard sync speed.

10-23-2013, 07:16 PM	#21
kricha6431 Forum Member Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Silsbee, TX Posts: 91 Original Poster	Originally posted by JinDesu "My point is/was for this Post: People were complaing that on the Prior Cameras they couldn't set a faster sync speed speed then 1/180 of a 2nd" They still can't. They can't set their standard sync faster than 1/180s. They weren't looking for HSS. I'm really lost by what you are looking to clarify here - people who were complaining about the sync speed before were referring specifically about standard sync speed. The memo on page 88 would mean nothing to those people, because again - they were looking for an increased standard sync speed. My bad!

10-23-2013, 09:15 PM	#22
Catalana Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: California Posts: 190	There is a way to combine higher shutter speeds with a single burst flash at full power, but it does require the use of a HSS capable flash to trigger another slave flash. It is called hyper-sync. The flash duration of the slave at full power has to be fairly low. For the Metz 48 AF-1 it is 1/125sec, and I know that my Yongnuo560 will work as well. I haven't read the K-3 manual yet, but at dpreview, there was reference to the K-3's built-in flash having HSS capability, which then can be used to optically trigger the slave. https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-flashes-lighting-technique/180003-...ml#post2541689 Edit: It seems that the built-in flash for the K-3 is not HSS capable, but a dedicated hot shoe flash with HSS will do the trick. Last edited by Catalana; 10-23-2013 at 09:55 PM. Reason: Error about K-3 feature

10-23-2013, 09:33 PM	#23
Cynog Ap Brychan Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Gloucester Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,199	Realistically, with the latitude of RAW files and the availability of ND filters, how many can honestly say that they have lost a shot because the flash sync speed is 1/180 rather than 1/250? Bueller..... Bueller...? I'm just curious?

10-23-2013, 10:14 PM - 1 Like	#24
Heie Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 968	Originally posted by Cynog Ap Brychan Realistically, with the latitude of RAW files and the availability of ND filters, how many can honestly say that they have lost a shot because the flash sync speed is 1/180 rather than 1/250? Bueller..... Bueller...? I'm just curious? The ND's speak to outdoor strobe lighting to balance the artificial with ambient light. Yes, easily corrected w/ ND's and the DR of the K-5/K-30 series albeit with a bit more effort. For me personally, and I'm sure I'm not alone - it's about freezing action at events. I've had quite a few blurry smiles, hand shakes, hugs, etc. at 1/180. There's nothing to be done about that other than a faster shutter speed, which, at the moment is not available using the regular sync speed. Wedding and event photographers will know exactly what I mean with this. -Heie

10-23-2013, 11:47 PM	#25
Catalana Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: California Posts: 190	Once again, it can be done. The devil is in the details. My K-5 will not send a trigger signal to the hotshoe at a shutter speed over the "standard" sync speed, unless a HSS enabled flash is mounted. Obviously the flash must also be Pentax compatible. The HSS flash (Metz 48 AF-1) by itself though, can only send a series of low power flashes, which limits the effective distance. If I where to add a wide flash bracket and mount a YN560 set to S2 mode (optical trigger / ignoring pre-flash) and point the head of the HSS flash at the sensor of the YN560, the YN560 can fire a full power burst. In my tests, I get no banding, even at 1/8000sec. Exposure is manually controlled, either with aperture of shutter speed. I've tried other configurations, but the above is the only one that works so far. It might look weird with two flashes mounted...

10-24-2013, 12:48 AM	#26
awaldram Veteran Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Hampshire Photos: Gallery Posts: 732	Originally posted by Catalana Once again, it can be done. The devil is in the details. My K-5 will not send a trigger signal to the hotshoe at a shutter speed over the "standard" sync speed, unless a HSS enabled flash is mounted. Obviously the flash must also be Pentax compatible. The HSS flash (Metz 48 AF-1) by itself though, can only send a series of low power flashes, which limits the effective distance. If I where to add a wide flash bracket and mount a YN560 set to S2 mode (optical trigger / ignoring pre-flash) and point the head of the HSS flash at the sensor of the YN560, the YN560 can fire a full power burst. In my tests, I get no banding, even at 1/8000sec. Exposure is manually controlled, either with aperture of shutter speed. I've tried other configurations, but the above is the only one that works so far. It might look weird with two flashes mounted... But this has the same disadvantage as HSS.? If your flash delivers T.1 = 1/125 and your shutter is firing at 1/8000 then light on target = 1/64 of full output. And as you need a HSS capable flash to do it I fail to see any advantage over just using HSS.

10-24-2013, 09:18 PM	#27
Catalana Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: California Posts: 190	Still thinking of a reply, but the devil is in the details....:-)

10-24-2013, 10:09 PM	#28
Alizarine Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Manila Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,185	Originally posted by JinDesu When people talk about flash sync faster than 1/180s, they are referring to standard flash sync, not high speed sync. High speed sync has other restrictions (such as much lower power) that some people do not like. These people see that Canon and Nikon have flash sync at 1/250s and therefore complain that Pentax is limited to 1/180s. Again, there is a difference between standard flash sync and high speed sync. +1 to this. also, HSS is only efficient on Pentax if the HSS flash is on the hotshoe. I'm not sure if the famed Cactus triggers enable wireless HSS~

10-24-2013, 10:17 PM	#29
awaldram Veteran Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Hampshire Photos: Gallery Posts: 732	Originally posted by Alizarine +1 to this. also, HSS is only efficient on Pentax if the HSS flash is on the hotshoe. I'm not sure if the famed Cactus triggers enable wireless HSS~ Would you explain what you mean.? HSS is the same efficiency whether remote or local ! On/off hot shoe makes no difference at all to it's efficiency. And no Cactus trigger to not allow HSS they are dumb cheap triggers.

10-24-2013, 11:49 PM	#30
Alizarine Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Manila Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,185	Originally posted by awaldram Would you explain what you mean.? HSS is the same efficiency whether remote or local ! On/off hot shoe makes no difference at all to it's efficiency. Well first off, using HSS reduces the effective power output and range of the flash. I have a Metz 58 AF-2, and I only go above 1/180s on it using P-TTL HSS. That means I'm limited to using it ONLY while mounted on the camera - resulting in a straight-on pop, with measurements done by the camera. What i like about having higher STANDARD flash sync are effects like this (photo not mine, just saw it on the net, credit goes to the owner): Having a higher standard flash sync allows you to use even manual flashes with a wider option for action shots. While some may argue that the effect can be achieved by using faster apertures on lenses and ND filters, some shots just really need higher shutter speeds. Of course, not everyone would use that... but then again not everyone wants video and manufacturers continue (and improve) to stick 'em in still cameras. It's all about having more options, and in cameras like the K-3, having more options in-camera is always better. 1/180s standard flash sync limits action shots to movement that can be captured efficiently at that speed. Mounting an HSS flash on the camera will help solve the problem, but ONLY if you use it within its effective distance covered - and the faster you go, the closer you have to be to keep the exposure evenly lit. In that case, to achieve the same look and feel and angle and field of view, you might have to change lenses, or add in continuous light (which is more expensive usually). So in a nutshell, it puts a roadblock/obstacle early on in your "shooting options while using flash" Originally posted by awaldram And no Cactus trigger to not allow HSS they are dumb cheap triggers. not sure if you've tried them but thanks for the info.