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10-31-2013, 06:59 AM   #301
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QuoteOriginally posted by PBandJ Quote
Which leads to the next question: if the price between the D600 and K3 is virtually the same, which it was on some recent (Oct 22) sales, why would you not choose the D600 and cover all ISOs?
The reasons are too many to mention....
Lenses will be bigger and more expensive. Particularly if you like 99% of lens buyers buy lenses for speed and not DOF (wide open). The K-3 will give you a larger range of DOF for lenses with same DOF wide open. It will also give closer minimum focusing distance for similar lenses with the same angle of view. The K-3 will give you 50% larger than lifesize magnification with (Pentax) macro lenses. With the K-3 you can shoot at 1 stop faster shutterspeed for the same DOF compared to FF. The fact that the K-3 has image stabilization as well with all lenses, it will give you up to 5 (FIVE) stop advantage over the D600 with ordinary lenses at the same DOF. That is night and day. The list goes on....
Unless you are married to a format I see no reason for 24mp FF cameras...make them 36mp or more....

10-31-2013, 07:05 AM   #302
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QuoteOriginally posted by PBandJ Quote
Which leads to the next question: if the price between the D600 and K3 is virtually the same, which it was on some recent (Oct 22) sales, why would you not choose the D600 and cover all ISOs?
Covered in detail here..
https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/172-pentax-k-3/240358-reasons-buying-k-3-a.html

But a brief synopsis, more resolution within the area of the crop sensor, making more resolution within, essentially making every lens longer. That's important for wildlife. To do what I do with my A-400 I'd have to buy and carry an A-600. You you're looking at a difference between 2 pounds and seven pounds.

APS-c will use every lens FF will use at the camera's full resolution but , but FF can't use APS-c lenses without seriously crippling the camera's resolution.

You want to carry one system.
Thom has gone to 4/3 for his carry around , which I totally understand after looking at OMD E-M5 images, which are just as good as a K-5II to my eye and FF for pro-work, when he's willing to pay the cost (in weight) to be the boss (the guy who's going to get the best shot in low light conditions, should it be necessary), APS-c as compromise is bigger than 4/3, but smaller than FF. I've gone for the middle ground. One system, not as big as FF, not as small as 4/3. The Buddha says "take the middle way". Just kidding

The fact that the K-3 and D600 are about the same price is an anomaly based on the huge number of D600 refurbs available due to some pretty annoying technical problems at launch, and that the D600 is being sold at 65% of it's launch price, and the K-3 is being sold at launch. It may be that D600 refurbs are available for a long time, who knows how many they have, but I wonder, unless you plan on shooting at 6400 ISO, why would consider a D600?

The image degradation is such by 6400 ISO on both cameras, the images wouldn't be of much use to me. I go for the low ISO, pristine clear shots that make use of the full dynamic range of the camera and with no visible noise. That would not be a 6400 ISO image on any camera I'm aware of.

Or as I'd sloganize it, pay for what you want, not for what you don't want. I don't want to tempt myself to take ISO 6400 images, which end up being pretty much a waste of time, at least for me.

Last edited by normhead; 10-31-2013 at 07:15 AM.
10-31-2013, 07:12 AM   #303
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This is just a case of a superior optic i.e. DA*55 demolishing a good optic i.e. Nikkor 85 f/1.8. If you're going to shell out for a FF camera / sensor, then you must also remember to shell out for comparable optics with corresponding costs and in most cases an increase in weight & size. Also remember that a FF setup will also place greater demands on your technique.
10-31-2013, 07:18 AM   #304
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QuoteOriginally posted by robbiec Quote
This is just a case of a superior optic i.e. DA*55 demolishing a good optic i.e. Nikkor 85 f/1.8. If you're going to shell out for a FF camera / sensor, then you must also remember to shell out for comparable optics with corresponding costs and in most cases an increase in weight & size. Also remember that a FF setup will also place greater demands on your technique.
I find it's actually much easier to achieve a good shot with FF, even with the shallower DOF, YMMV of course, and other factors like AF makes a big difference.

Not sure how much better 55/1.4 is but the 85/1.8 is actually an excellent lens with very little compromise (the 84/1.4's bokeh is creamier). I'd go as far to say that this lens alone is worth switching to Nikon, I have no reservations buying this lens even if it's stuck at f/1.8.
Nikkor AF-S 85mm f/1.8 G (FX) - Review / Test Report - Sample Images & Verdict

APSC have its points but I dont think it's fair saying that FF have no worthwhile advantages. Heck, after saying all that Thom admits he still shoots FF anyway.


Last edited by Andi Lo; 10-31-2013 at 07:24 AM.
10-31-2013, 07:26 AM   #305
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QuoteOriginally posted by robbiec Quote
This is just a case of a superior optic i.e. DA*55 demolishing a good optic i.e. Nikkor 85 f/1.8.
I don't think this is the case. The Nikon 85 f1.8G lens has as high a DxO score as the Nikon f1.4G - i.e., 40. I have one, and can confidently say that few lenses are sharper. It certainly appears to be on a par with the DA* 55. Photozone gives it 4 1/2 stars for optical quality, a very rare accolade indeed |(the DA* gets 3 1/2 stars).
10-31-2013, 07:33 AM   #306
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I'm not sure I even fit in this conversation, but I also think I represent a lot of the shooters on this Forum. I am an amateur. I shoot for fun and self satisfaction (and because squirrels make me do it). I don't require a lot form my cameras, the K5 has pretty much answered all my needs, which brings me to the question.....Why should I buy a new model? Because I can is not a good answer, so looking deeper, the K3 doesn't have much to offer me that will give realistic satisfaction over my K5.
I think Norms thread addressed this plainly https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/172-pentax-k-3/240358-reasons-buying-k-3-a.html

Although I would be getting some nice improvements...that I don't really need....for me it comes down to the improvements...or lack of...in the AF system. That has been the main weakness in every Pentax I have owned starting with the Ds. It is so frustrating to pick up a friends Nikon and get a fast and accurate focus with such ease and dependability, while wishing that Pentax could or would just make the effort to match it. For most of us amateurs, it is the one area where we would like to feel "even" with the competition and could actually improve our satisfaction in our Pentax cameras. Everything else in a Pentax excels for me...but that one thing would make a huge difference.

I will be watching and listening as the K3 hits the market. I feel confident all other functions will be superb. However, if this is not the case with the AF system, it will be like the what might have been a gorgeous wedding cake...where they forgot the icing.

Regards!
10-31-2013, 07:38 AM   #307
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The 85 1.8G is one of the best lens available for FF and is tack sharp wide open, and it is only $496, substantially cheaper than the 55. So someone posts some comparison photos that contradicts all of the reviews and thousands of incredible photos taken with that lens, and the 55 demolishes the 85? The 85 is only a good optic? Wow...
10-31-2013, 07:47 AM   #308
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QuoteOriginally posted by Brazeal Quote
The 85 1.8G is one of the best lens available for FF and is tack sharp wide open, and it is only $496, substantially cheaper than the 55. So someone posts some comparison photos that contradicts all of the reviews and thousands of incredible photos taken with that lens, and the 55 demolishes the 85? The 85 is only a good optic? Wow...
You seem to be suggesting that lenses should live on their reputations not on their performance...
But not to worry, in APS-c land (and elsewhere) lenses that produce smooth bokeh are treasured. In the sample images, were I to take either image as "the best" the differences are so slight I'd go with the 85 for it's bokeh, straight up, but if I really wanted the bokeh in this case, i'd just stop the 55 down to 2.8, so I'd have a solution.

The problem with arguing about what you "can do" is it obscures attention being paid to what you are doing. An advantage is only an advantage if you are using it.

The problem with arguing on reputation of a lens is, reputation is established by chatter, and the amount of chatter is determines by the number of people using the lens. Reputation earned in Nikon land doesn't mean a lot to Pentax users, because those users weren't comparing their 85s to Pentax glass.

I'm not saying by the way the 55 demolishes the 85 either, I'm just saying, preliminary results suggest it's just as good, more detailed info I'm sure will follow.


Last edited by normhead; 10-31-2013 at 09:13 AM.
10-31-2013, 07:48 AM   #309
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I put my $.02 in a couple of months ago - The Case Against Full Frame.

TLDR: I certainly don't need FF, but it sure is appealing.
10-31-2013, 07:51 AM   #310
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QuoteOriginally posted by Andi Lo Quote
I find it's actually much easier to achieve a good shot with FF, even with the shallower DOF, YMMV of course, and other factors like AF makes a big difference.

Not sure how much better 55/1.4 is but the 85/1.8 is actually an excellent lens with very little compromise (the 84/1.4's bokeh is creamier). I'd go as far to say that this lens alone is worth switching to Nikon, I have no reservations buying this lens even if it's stuck at f/1.8.
Nikkor AF-S 85mm f/1.8 G (FX) - Review / Test Report - Sample Images & Verdict

APSC have its points but I dont think it's fair saying that FF have no worthwhile advantages. Heck, after saying all that Thom admits he still shoots FF anyway.
Good points all Andi and I respect your opinions. Technique wise I was thinking along the lines of DOF issues where APS-C is more forgiving in nature. The DOF aspect is both an advantage and disadvantage depending on your subject matter. There seem to be one or two on here and elsewhere that seem to have a mindset that they need a FF to step up photography wise, which is fair enough. The point I was trying to make is that FF can punish you in cost (typically), weight (typically) and for some handling issues. Your processing workflow may also need a comparable upgrade due to file sizes.
10-31-2013, 08:00 AM   #311
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
The problem with arguing on reputation of a lens is, reputation is established by chatter, and the amount of chatter is determines by the number of people using the lens. Reputation earned in Nikon land doesn't mean a lot to Pentax users, because those users weren't comparing their 85s to Pentax glass.
I'm not quite sure what you're saying here, Norm. I use both Nikon and Pentax glass, and I have a high regard for both of them. The point I was addressing was that the Nikon 85 f1.8 cannot be regarded as "inferior" to the DA*55, certainly not when it comes to resolution (I have the 85, but I still want the 55 as well).
10-31-2013, 08:13 AM   #312
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QuoteOriginally posted by Cynog Ap Brychan Quote
I'm not quite sure what you're saying here, Norm. I use both Nikon and Pentax glass, and I have a high regard for both of them. The point I was addressing was that the Nikon 85 f1.8 cannot be regarded as "inferior" to the DA*55, certainly not when it comes to resolution (I have the 85, but I still want the 55 as well).
I'm saying bringing up reputation in a discussion of the merits of a couple of lenses is pretty much meaningless. And that the fact that the 85 is well regarded in the Nikon world, doesn't mean much when comparing it to any given Pentax lens. Direct comparisons between the two lenses are needed.
10-31-2013, 08:29 AM   #313
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FWIW, I will say, my friends who use D800's and G Nikkors to document the youth leadership gatherings we support tell me their primary reason is the fast / tracking AF (lots of "character development" action games; lots of interiors; lots of backlit outdoor scenes; lots of colorful clothing and especially candid smiling faces), not the sensor size. They say there's very little visually they can do with their new cameras they couldn't do with their previous Nikon DX bodies.

Last edited by monochrome; 10-31-2013 at 12:13 PM.
10-31-2013, 08:51 AM   #314
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QuoteOriginally posted by boriscleto Quote
You stopped reading because he presented a fact?
Mr. Hogan said:

QuoteQuote:
While full frame sensors have come down in price, every time they do, a crop sensor should come down in price by as much as a factor of eight.
Let's assume full frame sensors started at $500 and crop sensors started at $300. If there had been just one full frame sensor price drop of $50, the price drop for the crop sensor price would be 8 X $50 = $400. Obviously impossible. Try any other starting points for sensor prices and full frame sensor price drops and you see Hogan's formula doesn't make sense.

I don't see any other way to parse that sentence.
10-31-2013, 08:55 AM   #315
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QuoteOriginally posted by cfraz Quote
Mr. Hogan said:



Let's assume full frame sensors started at $500 and crop sensors started at $300. If there had been just one full frame sensor price drop of $50, the price drop for the crop sensor price would be 8 X $50 = $400. Obviously impossible. Try any other starting points for sensor prices and full frame sensor price drops and you see Hogan's formula doesn't make sense.

I don't see any other way to parse that sentence.
That's because you used the extreme case instead of going for something more reasonable, like say a factor of 2.5, which is more likely closer to the actual number. He's probably including P&S sensors in his statement. Not every crop sensor is APS-c. Also in your example, FF sensor at $500 the APS-c sensor should have been $200. Sensors become more proportionally more expensive as size increases.
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