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10-31-2013, 01:38 PM   #331
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
...
well with all lenses, it will give you up to 5 (FIVE) stop advantage
Assuming you can take a sharp shot at 1/60th, go out and shoot 10 shots at 1/2 second and tell me how many are sharp. I'm curious.

10-31-2013, 02:08 PM   #332
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
He's often in the past had some bad things to say about Pentax, coming close to predicting their demise several times. When he's like that, he's persona non grata around here. When he says something nice about aps-c, he's a hero!

.
We don't idolize folks and believe whatever they say, we tend to read what they have to say and agree or disagree depending on whether or not we think they are right. That's called having a mind of your own. To be different would be, to be mindless sheep who can't think for themselves. Like Apple users 10 years ago, there aren't many sheep in Pentax land. If you aren't impressed with Pentax's features, you don't own a Pentax. There's no marketing hype to sway your opinion, and most Camera users are not going to steer you towards Pentax, yourself included.

If you read through my points in this thread and his, you'll see we think a lot of the same things... but I said them here before I'd seen his post, so I'm happy they're there. When the whole FF crowd turns up and starts spewing their anti-Pentax venom, what's a guy supposed to do? Hey.. Thom is on my side, at least on this one. It's always good to have a few people you can point to to say "it's not just me. look at that guy over there."

So I appreciate his article, so sue me.
10-31-2013, 02:15 PM   #333
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote


5 stops!! My land! (I think you'll see up to three, usually about one or two, according to users and dpreview, etc, etc. It is a nice feature because it gives it's benefit to all lenses, even old ones. It also means, though, that you can't take advantage of in-lens stabilization from Tamron/Sigma, which is going to give you another stop over in-body.)



,
You are able to take advantage of lenses with IS/OS (if they are available in a k mount). At the same time, I prefer IBIS. It decreases size of lenses, is active on all lenses (as you said) and really in the long run can be at least as effective as in lens stabilization, if not better (can correct more axises than in lens stabilization).

Obviously, Pentax has leveraged it a lot more than just for stabilization, producing some composition adjustment features as well as the astro tracking module.

You are correct to say that most of the time 2 to 3 stops is the most stabilization you will get with it,
10-31-2013, 02:46 PM   #334
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
You are able to take advantage of lenses with IS/OS (if they are available in a k mount). At the same time, I prefer IBIS. It decreases size of lenses, is active on all lenses (as you said) and really in the long run can be at least as effective as in lens stabilization, if not better (can correct more axises than in lens stabilization).

Obviously, Pentax has leveraged it a lot more than just for stabilization, producing some composition adjustment features as well as the astro tracking module.

You are correct to say that most of the time 2 to 3 stops is the most stabilization you will get with it,
Ricoh are claiming about 3.5, saying that they have improved SR in the K-3 compared with earlier cameras. I intend to test that, especially with my long lenses.

What I really want to know is what shutter speed I need with each lens. I did this with my Sigma 500mm f/4.5 on my K5-IIs, and found the information useful. I just took several shots at one shutter speed, then more at a slower one, etc, until I was getting fewer than half sharp. For example, "1/350th - 4 out of 5 sharp". "1/250th - 2 or 3 out of 5 sharp".

But while I'm doing this for the K-3 with SR, I might as well run the test twice, once with and once without SR.

10-31-2013, 02:57 PM   #335
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
This ^^ is both confusingly worded and seems to be 180 degrees from the truth. I'm honestly curious about how you came to this assertion?



????? I'm think I've stumbled into a Scandinavian Twilight Zone.


,

It isn't confusing:

a) For lenses with the same DOF wide open APS will have a larger range of DOF. This is because in real life the APS lens will have one stop faster max aperture but both lenses will typically have the same minimum aperture. In addition the APS lens will have closer minumum focusing distance. Add this fact to the one added aperture available and you have a larger DOF range. Incidentally, this also means that for lenses with the same maximum aperture the APS will also a larger DOF range as the range can be combined with a closer focusing distance.

b) At the same exposure you'll get one stop faster shutterspeed with APS for the same DOF. This is because you shoot at a wider aperture. Add this to the up to four stops gain with SR in every lens then you get a total of five stop advantage at best compared to a D600 without stabilization.
(if you increase the ISO value on the D600 you loose the FF advantage provided there is any. It seems that below 6400ISO there isn't. Besides, people tend to use their cameras at their best setting whenever they can regardless of format)
Actually, this is the main reason why medium format cameras are tripod cameras. Not their size and weight; they (at least the Pentax 645) are in fact easier to handheld than a 35mm camera. However, in order to get sufficient DOF, you'll often end up with longish shutterspeeds demanding a tripod.

Hope this is clear

Last edited by Pål Jensen; 10-31-2013 at 03:15 PM.
10-31-2013, 07:53 PM   #336
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
You are able to take advantage of lenses with IS/OS (if they are available in a k mount). At the same time, I prefer IBIS. It decreases size of lenses, is active on all lenses (as you said) and really in the long run can be at least as effective as in lens stabilization, if not better (can correct more axises than in lens stabilization).

Obviously, Pentax has leveraged it a lot more than just for stabilization, producing some composition adjustment features as well as the astro tracking module.

You are correct to say that most of the time 2 to 3 stops is the most stabilization you will get with it,
I agree that IBIS is better, all things considered, and I prefer it. If I were a pro, I'd probably only own VR lenses, but for enthusiasts IBIS is a gift that keeps on giving.
10-31-2013, 08:10 PM   #337
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
It isn't confusing:

a) For lenses with the same DOF wide open APS will have a larger range of DOF. This is because in real life the APS lens will have one stop faster max aperture but both lenses will typically have the same minimum aperture.
I am honestly confused, and not following. Please give me an example of the above using existing lenses.


QuoteQuote:
In addition the APS lens will have closer minumum focusing distance.
Why? MFD is completely lens-design dependent, has nothing to do with format.


QuoteQuote:
b) At the same exposure you'll get one stop faster shutterspeed with APS for the same DOF. This is because you shoot at a wider aperture.
Only if you want to. If you want the same shutter speeds and are OK with (or prefer) the stop less DOF - and one stop less noise - leave the aperture where it is and viola. If you want to have the same shutter speed and same DOF, simply bump ISO that one stop, and viola II. You won't see more noise, because you'll have that available SNR overhead with FF, assuming sensor generations are close. Here is a great reference to Equivalence you should bookmark..

QuoteQuote:
Add this to the up to four stops gain with SR in every lens then you get a total of five stop advantage at best compared to a D600 without stabilization.
Your shutter speed stop is falsly derived, see above, and the biggest claim ever for IBIS is 4 stops, but nearly every place that tested said 3 or 2 is more likely. There are no 5 stops to be had. (You don't need 5 stops to make it a neat feature, 2 stops is enough.)

EDIT: OK, enough with the FF talk in a K-3 forum, I promise
.

Last edited by jsherman999; 10-31-2013 at 09:00 PM.
10-31-2013, 08:41 PM   #338
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I think Nikon and Canon decided to put all their eggs in the full frame SLR basket and run with it. That has meant getting the price down however they can -- maybe even taking a loss on the cameras in order to get people into the system. In order to make a go of it, they have to make certain that none of their crop cameras are good enough to even challenge the 6D or D610 and that the majority of their upper end lenses are for full frame cameras.

In the end, it feels pretty desperate. I think the way to go is put out quality cameras at every level and then people will go for what they need/can afford.
I might agree to a degree with everything you say here, although I'd change 'desperate' to 'successfully manipulative.' (which is worse, IMO.)

Also, the idea that camera companies ever sell large volume cameras 'at a loss' is a myth. It's a myth that sticks around because companies have absolutely no reason to publicly refute it. In fact it's a myth that helps move units - everyone would like to think they're, in a small way, taking advantage of Nikon/Canon. I think the closest we probably had to a body selling at a loss was the $1900 Sony A850 back in 2009, which had the same expensive sensor and almost the exact same body as the $3000 A900. But even then it was Sony Semiconductor selling to Sony Imaging, so who knows what the real sensor purchase price was.


Last edited by jsherman999; 10-31-2013 at 08:56 PM.
11-01-2013, 08:52 PM   #339
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QuoteOriginally posted by JJJPhoto Quote
Were the dogs stuffed? What I wanna know is, how did they manage to get two dogs in the fore and back grounds to not move a micron while swapping cameras in the same location? (p.s. ya, I saw the Update 10/27/13)

Last edited by m8o; 11-01-2013 at 09:00 PM.
11-01-2013, 09:01 PM   #340
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QuoteOriginally posted by m8o Quote
Were the dogs stuffed? What I wanna know is, how did they manage to get two dogs in the fore and back grounds to not move a micron while swapping cameras in the same location?
Oh man, please go through this thread. This has been discussed ad nauseum.
11-01-2013, 09:14 PM   #341
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QuoteOriginally posted by DogLover Quote
Oh man, please go through this thread. This has been discussed ad nauseum.
or I could search this thread for the word 'dog'.
11-01-2013, 10:48 PM   #342
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I just want my little "crappy" crop sensor with a nice FF VF, OH Yea!
11-02-2013, 08:51 AM   #343
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QuoteOriginally posted by Col Quote
I've no idea how they/he managed to make the two dog shots that similar.
Those are very similar. K-3 looks great. Only pair where I liked the Nikon better was the evergreen as I like my "green" to be somewhat blue.

Makes the k-3 look superb. In this day and age, I'm led to believe at lower ISO, 24 MP vs 24 MP would be about a wash, save for any DoF things. K-3 imags looked a little punchier; could be some processing settings.

So what do the Nikon peope say to a comparison like that?

I am a Pentax guy, but hold Nikon in very high regard as well.
11-03-2013, 08:33 PM   #344
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Sorry, just curious, but why is the K3 being compared to the D600 and not the Sony A7/r?

Edit: Is it mainly because it's a DSLR vs DSLR comparison?
11-04-2013, 09:09 AM   #345
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QuoteOriginally posted by SyncGuy Quote
Sorry, just curious, but why is the K3 being compared to the D600 and not the Sony A7/r?

Edit: Is it mainly because it's a DSLR vs DSLR comparison?
For me it's the 36 MP resolution of the A7r. K-3 to D600 is 24 MP to 24 MP, which makes it particularly interesting, in that both are modern sensors, both are 24 MP minimizing effects caused by resolution and allowing us to compare APS-c to a 35mm frame. Recognized in this discussion is the fact that for Resolution in landscapes the D800 and probably the A7r are both probably way ahead of either of these cameras. But for those of us who thought 36MP was overkill, this is a , "I have my K-3 for wildlife and action, do I need a D600 for landscape" discussion and the answer to date is a decided no.

But if there was to be a dedicated D800 to A7r comparison, that would be apples to apples and I'd be all for it. But I don't really care because a Pentax 35mm format will be out in 6 months eliminating my interest in either, as long as it stacks up ok in IQ.

Last edited by normhead; 11-04-2013 at 09:23 AM.
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