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10-29-2013, 09:15 AM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by shaX 07 Quote
I compared the K-30 and the K-3 images side by side (Samples pages, separate browser windows, same monitor) and they look about the same to me.

Anyone else agree or am I just a nub?
Well the k3 is showing considerably more resolution
And though the k30 is nearly as sharp there are halo's all over.

10-29-2013, 09:23 AM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
At first I was concerned:



And then I opened up the RAW in Photoshop CC:



Disaster averted!
Yes the Exif says Auto Hi ISO noise reduction was active (though Weak) looks to have really hammered "colour noise" badly
10-29-2013, 11:00 AM   #18
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I downloaded the 12600 ISO DNG and did NR in RAW then opened in PS and used Neat Image to further NR. Here is a crop from that . . .I think it is not bad at all . . . thoughts?

The second image is 100% crop
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10-29-2013, 11:03 AM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by bcorson Quote
I downloaded the 12600 ISO DNG and did NR in RAW then opened in PS and used Neat Image to further NR. Here is a crop from that . . .I think it is not bad at all . . . thoughts?

The second image is 100% crop
Was that magically turned into a solid red square of fabric?

10-29-2013, 11:14 AM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
Was that magically turned into a solid red square of fabric?
Not sure what you mean but here is what I should have uploaded to begin with . . .the full image after NR as described above and a 100% crop of the fabric
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10-29-2013, 11:52 AM   #21
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Well I just downloaded the K3 and the k5IIs dng's and converted them all in Photo Ninja 3 to tiff exactly the same way: no noise reduction and no sharpening, and I put all other controls on manuel. Then I floated it all over to Aperture and set it up to toggle between each same iso for the two cameras. If you look at them both at 100% the K3 is consistently noisier at the same iso's. But if you reduce the resolution of the K3 to equal the K5IIs they are about the same or the K3 is a little better. I had to use Photo Ninja because it was the only full featured application that would open the K3 files, so as others are updated the noise could easily go down in the files. At least both cameras files are treated exactly the same. I am not posting the pics here because they are not my pics and I don't want copyright issues. Ymmv, but the K3 files are a little less noisy than my older D3X files.

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10-29-2013, 11:58 AM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by bcorson Quote
Not sure what you mean but here is what I should have uploaded to begin with . . .the full image after NR as described above and a 100% crop of the fabric
What I meant is the red fabric has lost essentially all detail. If you look at the corresponding K-5IIs JPEG, it still has plenty of detail in that piece to the point where it's not obvious they are same subject.
10-29-2013, 12:06 PM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
What I meant is the red fabric has lost essentially all detail. If you look at the corresponding K-5IIs JPEG, it still has plenty of detail in that piece to the point where it's not obvious they are same subject.

Yeah I also find that very strange.

10-29-2013, 12:21 PM   #24
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I just tried RPP(raw photo processor) on a few of the K3 dng's and the noise seems a bit lower than I got with the Photo Ninja 3 conversion. So it's early days for truly saying what the noise level is with the K3 because many of the programs we use don't support it yet. BTW, this was the way it was with the Sony Alpha 900 also, it had a really noisy sensor in it and a few of the conversion programs rendered that noise a lot better than others. Ymmv,

David
10-29-2013, 02:29 PM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
What I meant is the red fabric has lost essentially all detail. If you look at the corresponding K-5IIs JPEG, it still has plenty of detail in that piece to the point where it's not obvious they are same subject.
I was using the DNG file for the K 3 and don't have one for any other camera. I went back and looked at the 5iis versus the K 3 Jpegs and no question that the detail is gone but they equally bad . . . possibly a slight edge to the K 5 bot not much. Both have severe degradation even at 800 ISO. Question really is, for me at least, if you get the DNG files of both and compare at various ISO settings and then post process in RAW converter how do the results compare then. That will tell me what I would be losing or gaining re low light/high ISO when I sue the cameras. Of course I want to see with the K 30 although the K 5ii and K 30 should be pretty close.
10-29-2013, 03:25 PM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by bcorson Quote
I was using the DNG file for the K 3 and don't have one for any other camera. I went back and looked at the 5iis versus the K 3 Jpegs and no question that the detail is gone but they equally bad . . . possibly a slight edge to the K 5 bot not much. Both have severe degradation even at 800 ISO. Question really is, for me at least, if you get the DNG files of both and compare at various ISO settings and then post process in RAW converter how do the results compare then. That will tell me what I would be losing or gaining re low light/high ISO when I sue the cameras. Of course I want to see with the K 30 although the K 5ii and K 30 should be pretty close.
Please take another look at Mr. Flores's comparison of ISO 1600 JPEG crops.
10-29-2013, 03:46 PM   #27
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Downloaded the (35MB!) 1600 ISO K3hSLI01600NR0.DNG.

I was happy to see that my Lightroom 4.4 does a good job with the 1600 ISO DNG. No problems with the red swatch AT ALL. Good detail too all over the place. LR will probably do even better I expect once Adobe profile the K-3. Re-assuring

Looking closely at the DNG, at 100% view noise levels seem higher than the K-5, noticeable in the grey cardboard surrounding the small colour board at the bottom of the test scene. But I have to keep reminding myself that looking at these larger images at 100% and making comparisons with the smaller images of the K-5 is not the way to do it.

It is a pity that the JPG out of camera in the IR sample munges the red details of the patch so badly past about 800 ISO. However, it is worth noting that the Image Tone setting in the test scene JPG is the default 'Bright', which also means contrast and sharpness are bumped, and that colours are adjusted. Perhaps the 'Natural' in-camera JPG image tone would show the swatch better. Either way, the results of processing via LR are much better quality than the in-camera JPG.
10-29-2013, 03:55 PM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
Please take another look at Mr. Flores's comparison of ISO 1600 JPEG crops.
I did download K5iis 1600 it doesn't look like the one on his crop. The K5 doesn't look any better then the K3. Perhaps he downloaded a DNG for 1600 or a lower ISO jpeg in error. Besides, as I said I am more concerned/interested in the RAW files not jpeg from some engine I don't control.

Last edited by bcorson; 10-29-2013 at 05:04 PM.
10-29-2013, 07:32 PM - 1 Like   #29
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I downloaded the k-3 ISO 6400 file. Much much different than the jpeg shown by IR

k-3 RAW edited in Lightroom 5: http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2888/10567448883_e7693b14f8_o.jpg
For comparison, the original linked IR images:

k-3 ISO 6400 - http://216.18.212.226/PRODS/pentax-k3/FULLRES/K3hSLI06400NR0.JPG
k-5IIs ISO 6400 - http://216.18.212.226/PRODS/pentax-k5-iis/FULLRES/K52ShSLI06400NR0.JPG
D600 ISO 6400 - http://216.18.212.226/PRODS/nikon-d600/FULLRES/D600hSLI06400NR0.JPG
D7100 ISO 6400 - http://216.18.212.226/PRODS/nikon-d7100/FULLRES/D7100hSLI06400NR0.JPG

Revised analysis:
None of the other cameras have RAW files on IR for me to download to check against their jpegs, but the RAW processed jpeg for the k-3 shows very fine noise - a good amount of luminance noise with a hint of chroma. A ton of detail is still there without the noise reduction affecting the jpeg. When comparing vs the other jpegs, the detail in the k-3 RAW processed jpeg is fantastic - much more detail than even the D600's jpeg. Which is probably not a fair way to judge, since I don't have the RAW for the D600.

Edit - I found the RAWs for the other cameras - linked here:
D7100 LR5 Edited: http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3787/10567238074_8074765b08_o.jpg
k-5IIs LR5 Edited: http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5526/10567446493_da40b17387_o.jpg
D600 LR5 Edited: http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7366/10567190476_3f6a5516c7_o.jpg

Looking at the RAW processed jpegs, my final take at ISO 6400 is:

1) The k-3 has less noise than the D7100. The k-3 retains similar detail to the D7100, with different color saturations.
2) The k-3 shows more noise than the k-5IIs. The k-3 shows greater detail than the k-5IIs. Color is about the same.
3) The D600 shows the least noise. The D600 also appears clearer/more detailed, but it is also a bit brighter than the k-3 image.

Hope this is helpful!

Last edited by JinDesu; 10-29-2013 at 07:56 PM.
10-29-2013, 08:24 PM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by JinDesu Quote
You should warn folks that that is a 22MB file....
When I processed the 6400 ISO DNG and exported it at 82% reduced JPEG (plenty good enough) it was still big, but only 7.85MB.

It would also be handy to show what settings you used for NR and sharpening on the LR sliders. I got good results with NR Luminance 40, NR detail 60, Sharpening 55, Masking 30 on the 6400 ISO DNG, as well as a few tweaks to clarity and exposure.

Incidentally, I also found that one of the reasons the Pentax JPG engine muddies up the reds on the swatch may be that it seems to read the dark pattern lines in the red as colour noise, and over-aggressively try to reduce that. By bumping up the colour noise reduction slider in LR you can just about replicate the effect.
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