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View Poll Results: Which is which?
File one = K-3, File two = K-5 IIs 27264.00%
File one = K-5 IIs, File two = K-3 15336.00%
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11-04-2013, 06:42 PM   #151
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QuoteOriginally posted by Adam Quote
So, the first pic was from the k3 and the second from the k5iis.

Whats funny is that until the smart alecs started posting replies, the poll was split 50-50 Says something, doesn't it?
It confirmed that if images of K-3 are cropped to the size as from K-5iis, K-3 doesn't convince the majority to upgrade the K-5iis

11-04-2013, 06:49 PM   #152
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
Yes, but the big question is what it says.

For sure it isn't the case that the difference between a K-5 IIs and a K-3 is like that between an iPhone 3GS and a Hasseblad H5D-40.

But from your experiment you cannot conclude that the K-5 IIs and K-3 are "too close to call".

If you really want to know whether people can pick out a difference then focus, WB, RAW development (avoid ACR (= LR & PS), if you can), etc. must all be the same.

I would then strongly suggest to upscale the smaller image to the larger size (instead of downscaling the larger image to the smaller size). When you downscale, you invariably lose detail that is then lost for comparison.

Finally, let people know which upscaling method you've used and whether you applied any post-sharpening. Whatever you do in the scaling process can have a bigger impact on the images than the two different sensors produce in the first place.
In retrospect it would probably be better to stick to in-camera JPEGs for a comparison like this (as long as all settings are the same), as there are so many variables in RAW files these days that you can goof even if you go way out of your way to try to get two files to look the same. And yes, I agree that ACR should be avoided.

The reason these two photos look different is that the tripod plate on the K-5 IIs was misaligned. Aw well- I can take it out again tomorrow! Test charts would also work, of course, but that's not what it's about IMO. Been trying to avoid those as much as possible!

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11-04-2013, 06:55 PM   #153
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QuoteOriginally posted by Adam Quote
And yes, I agree that ACR should be avoided.
Why it should be avoided?
11-04-2013, 06:58 PM   #154
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QuoteOriginally posted by Adam Quote
So, the first pic was from the k3 and the second from the k5iis.

Whats funny is that until the smart alecs started posting replies, the poll was split 50-50 Says something, doesn't it?
Yes it does. It shows that when you down-sample a higher-resolution image you throw out information. A down-sampled K3 image is not much better than a K5iis image.

Remarkable!!

Dan

11-04-2013, 06:58 PM   #155
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QuoteOriginally posted by jaad75 Quote
Why it should be avoided?
It shouldn't be avoided in general, but if you're trying to do a controlled test like this one, you might prefer not to get third party software involved.

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11-04-2013, 07:00 PM   #156
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Adam, which camera more accurately recorded the sky color? Thanks.
11-04-2013, 07:10 PM   #157
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QuoteOriginally posted by Adam Quote
In retrospect it would probably be better to stick to in-camera JPEGs for a comparison like this (as long as all settings are the same)...
I can't think of anything that would be less interesting from my perspective. The most useful approach (for me) would be to make the RAW files available so that I can optimize them as I would in my normal workflow--including corrections for lateral chromatic aberrations (ahem!). Why in the world would anyone be interested in comparisons that do not correspond to their own workflow? In-camera JPEGs should only be of interest to people who never try to get the most out of their images. There's nothing wrong with that, but please don't try to pass it off as a meaningful test for the rest of us. In my opinion that is not a meaningful way to compare cameras or lenses.

Dan
11-04-2013, 07:10 PM   #158
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QuoteOriginally posted by Adam Quote
It shouldn't be avoided in general, but if you're trying to do a controlled test like this one, you might prefer not to get third party software involved.
So you should use the most possible neutral output out there - dcraw.
I would rather use the most popular converter (which I think is Lightroom/ACR) to show what average Joe would get, but the white balance and camera profile should be set exactly the same (Daylight in this case), if not in a converter then definitely in both cameras.

11-04-2013, 07:12 PM   #159
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I would say the k3, as it doesn't exhibit the same blue cast in this particular photo. Its awb system is better in general, especially in artificial lighting, based on my experience with it so far. It might not be a stretch to say that the new metering and wb system is just as important of an improvement as the increase in resolution.

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11-04-2013, 07:13 PM   #160
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QuoteOriginally posted by jaad75 Quote
So you should use the most possible neutral output out there - dcraw.
I would rather use the most popular converter (which I think is Lightroom/ACR) to show what average Joe would get, but the white balance and camera profile should be set exactly the same (Daylight in this case), if not in a converter then definitely in both cameras.
Both these shots were set to daylight, I'm not sure if.the converter overrode this setting.

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11-04-2013, 07:19 PM   #161
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QuoteOriginally posted by Adam Quote
Both these shots were set to daylight, I'm not sure if.the converter overrode this setting.
Really? It looks like AWB to me - the K-3 file shows 6400K/-5 and the K-5IIs is 5000K/+14, both were set to As Shot in ACR. I doubt in-camera Daylight would show such a difference, even with Adobe Standard and Embedded profiles.
11-04-2013, 07:57 PM   #162
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It seems to me that the first one has more details. So my guess is that it was taken with K-3.
11-04-2013, 07:59 PM   #163
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QuoteOriginally posted by Adam Quote
In retrospect it would probably be better to stick to in-camera JPEGs for a comparison like this (as long as all settings are the same), as there are so many variables in RAW files these days that you can goof even if you go way out of your way to try to get two files to look the same. And yes, I agree that ACR should be avoided.
personally I think there's no need for a camera of the K-3 (or even K-5) class for shooting JPEGs IQ wise, but that's just me, of course. Now that the cat is out of the bag I am even more interested to see how well K-3 moiré tamer works.
QuoteOriginally posted by Adam Quote

Test charts would also work, of course, but that's not what it's about IMO. Been trying to avoid those as much as possible!
agreed, a picture is more than a sum of its (however well) measured parameters
11-04-2013, 08:08 PM   #164
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Thanks of posting those Adam. I have no problem looking at them, seeing what the potential problems might be and drawing my own conclusions. While there are slight differences, I doubt I'd be selling a K-5IIs for a K-3, but my bodies are K-5s. I'm finding I really like the filterless photos.
11-04-2013, 08:34 PM   #165
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So far the K-3 has better wb than the K-5. My DA*300 had a pronounced yellowish cast that was corrected by a spot white balance shot and preset that I used post. The K-3 seems right on without.
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