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12-18-2013, 10:34 AM   #61
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
I've never once done that, or heard that it was necessary. So what you're saying is if no one ever opens a service request, there will never be K-3 for Aperture? That I would definitely need a reference for to believe.
No, I'm not saying that it will never be supported, what I'm saying is that Apple will support it when they determine that they have enough customers complaining that they don't. Squeaky wheel.

QuoteOriginally posted by boriscleto Quote
Apple provides DNG support, but Ricoh added a non-standard DNG to the K-3. How can Apple support the K-3 if Ricoh doesn't tell them what they did to DNG? Do you think Adobe just figured it out by themselves and updated Camera RAW out of the goodness of their hearts?
I would guess that the DNG issue is due to a camera source label that is not recognized. As to the software companies developing support, most just need a sample file to support converting it. And no Adobe is not going to put software development resources on it until they know that they are going to lose revenue to competitors.

12-18-2013, 10:39 AM   #62
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
I've never once done that, or heard that it was necessary. So what you're saying is if no one ever opens a service request, there will never be K-3 for Aperture? That I would definitely need a reference for to believe.
Nobody says there won't be support without a service request but it could make Apple accelerate their work. Go for it! :-)
12-18-2013, 11:19 AM - 1 Like   #63
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The place to send Apple feedback is as follows:

Apple - Aperture - Feedback

Please let them know you have a K3 and use Aperture.

Thanks
12-18-2013, 11:28 AM   #64
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Done...

12-18-2013, 11:31 AM   #65
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QuoteOriginally posted by boriscleto Quote
Apple provides DNG support, but Ricoh added a non-standard DNG to the K-3. How can Apple support the K-3 if Ricoh doesn't tell them what they did to DNG? Do you think Adobe just figured it out by themselves and updated Camera RAW out of the goodness of their hearts?
The way DNG is structured caters for backward compatibility. The interpreter is supposed to know how to skip the sections that it does not understand while the camera should ensure that it only adds new sections while maintaining the minimum standard sections needed to interpret the image correctly. The fact that the converter cannot read it points to a likely bug in the interpreter.

It could also have been that Pentax didn't follow the DNG rules but that does not appear to be the case as even old non updated DNG interpreters can still read the K-3s DNGs.

There is one area where Pentax does seem to have broken the rules but a very minor one in my opinion - the well known multi-AWB problem. They have added some new data structure to cater for this, but that in itself that should create no problem as an interpreter that doesn;t support it should just ignore it. But what they have failed to properly is fill in the standard fields that define normal white balance. In other words to be entirely correct apart from multi-AWB the camera should also perform in parallel the normal AWB algorithm and store its result in the conventional white balance fields.
12-18-2013, 11:58 AM   #66
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QuoteOriginally posted by lister6520 Quote
The way DNG is structured caters for backward compatibility. The interpreter is supposed to know how to skip the sections that it does not understand while the camera should ensure that it only adds new sections while maintaining the minimum standard sections needed to interpret the image correctly. The fact that the converter cannot read it points to a likely bug in the interpreter.
The Apple DNG interpreter is very strict. It does not read DNG files created by VueScan even though some other interpreters can.
12-18-2013, 12:18 PM   #67
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It may be strict by some meaning of that word but not as far as following the rules is concerned. In other words it is not strictly following the rules of how a DNG should be interpreted as the tolerance of non understood sections is built into the standard so not ignoring those new unknown sections is either a bug or a non compliance to the standard.

There is of course also the possibility that the Pentax DNGs are breaking the rules and other interpreters just happen to be more tolerant to that particular breach of protocol but this ios not looking very likely.
12-18-2013, 01:33 PM   #68
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mark K5 Quote
The place to send Apple feedback is as follows:

Apple - Aperture - Feedback

Please let them know you have a K3 and use Aperture.

Thanks
Hey thanks - some usable info; I should have had the gumption to dig this out myself.

Jer

12-19-2013, 06:18 AM   #69
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Just fired off the feed back form, thanks for the tip.
12-19-2013, 08:40 AM   #70
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QuoteOriginally posted by lister6520 Quote
It may be strict by some meaning of that word but not as far as following the rules is concerned. In other words it is not strictly following the rules of how a DNG should be interpreted as the tolerance of non understood sections is built into the standard so not ignoring those new unknown sections is either a bug or a non compliance to the standard.

There is of course also the possibility that the Pentax DNGs are breaking the rules and other interpreters just happen to be more tolerant to that particular breach of protocol but this ios not looking very likely.
If Adobe's software interpreter could open K-3 DNG files without messing up WB, then it's reasonable to assume the Apple problem lies with Apple. Considering all the reports of Adobe's software totally messing up WB on K-3 DNG files, it's more reasonable to assume the Apple problem lies with Ricoh/Pentax.

This isn't rocket surgery. Adobe can't display the files correctly (at least in many cases) while Apple can't display them at all. How far does one have to look to find the problem considering Apple's software never had a problem before opening any DNG file from any camera whether officially supported or not (AFAIK)?
12-19-2013, 10:20 AM   #71
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QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
If Adobe's software interpreter could open K-3 DNG files without messing up WB, then it's reasonable to assume the Apple problem lies with Apple. Considering all the reports of Adobe's software totally messing up WB on K-3 DNG files, it's more reasonable to assume the Apple problem lies with Ricoh/Pentax.

This isn't rocket surgery. Adobe can't display the files correctly (at least in many cases) while Apple can't display them at all. How far does one have to look to find the problem considering Apple's software never had a problem before opening any DNG file from any camera whether officially supported or not (AFAIK)?
The M-AWB problem is a minor, almost insignificant one and it is almost certainly Pentax at fault for that one - for omitting or not correctly populating the conventional white balance fields. The issue only happens with M-AWB - any other WB setting works fine whether manual or auto. And even when it happens with AWB all you need to do is click the Auto white balance on lightroom and the problem goes away. Keep in mind that the only thing WB does in a RAW file is tell the post processor what the camera things the colour temperature and tint values should be. The PP processor can just as easily determine that itself and ignore what the camera says.

As far as I'm concerned the only use of white balance on the camera is to let me see a preview on the LCD - there is no other good reason for the camera determining the white balance for a raw file that will be post processed - the PP software can do it just as well or better. (*1)

On the other hand not opening a file at all seems to me to me a bug which I would consider somewhat important to fix.


*1 - there is actually one situation where the M-AWB can be useful and can do something that no PP can do, and that is with flash photography where there is a significant part of the image that is illuminated by available light rather than the flash. In such cases the camera has the 'unfair' advantage over the PP software that it knows which part of the image is illuminated by the flash and which by the existing light and can therefore apply the WB differently to those areas. This is something which is made possible only by the RGB exposure sensor array.
12-19-2013, 10:54 AM   #72
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Also submitted the feedback form. Let's hope they get enough to get in gear here.
12-19-2013, 11:01 AM   #73
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QuoteOriginally posted by lister6520 Quote
The M-AWB problem is a minor, almost insignificant one and it is almost certainly Pentax at fault for that one - for omitting or not correctly populating the conventional white balance fields. The issue only happens with M-AWB - any other WB setting works fine whether manual or auto. And even when it happens with AWB all you need to do is click the Auto white balance on lightroom and the problem goes away. Keep in mind that the only thing WB does in a RAW file is tell the post processor what the camera things the colour temperature and tint values should be. The PP processor can just as easily determine that itself and ignore what the camera says.

As far as I'm concerned the only use of white balance on the camera is to let me see a preview on the LCD - there is no other good reason for the camera determining the white balance for a raw file that will be post processed - the PP software can do it just as well or better. (*1)

On the other hand not opening a file at all seems to me to me a bug which I would consider somewhat important to fix.


*1 - there is actually one situation where the M-AWB can be useful and can do something that no PP can do, and that is with flash photography where there is a significant part of the image that is illuminated by available light rather than the flash. In such cases the camera has the 'unfair' advantage over the PP software that it knows which part of the image is illuminated by the flash and which by the existing light and can therefore apply the WB differently to those areas. This is something which is made possible only by the RGB exposure sensor array.
I don't think you can click the Auto button in Lightroom to make the problem go away as all you end up with is an image with a uniform WB which defeats the purpose of the M-AWB feature.

If there's any other camera out there that produces a DNG file that Aperture can't open, I don't know of it. Either they all conform to the standard perfectly or Aperture is designed to handle variances in implementation already. That the K-3 seems to present a unique problem, doesn't that tell us something?
12-19-2013, 11:41 AM   #74
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QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
I don't think you can click the Auto button in Lightroom to make the problem go away as all you end up with is an image with a uniform WB which defeats the purpose of the M-AWB feature.

If there's any other camera out there that produces a DNG file that Aperture can't open, I don't know of it. Either they all conform to the standard perfectly or Aperture is designed to handle variances in implementation already. That the K-3 seems to present a unique problem, doesn't that tell us something?
The K-3 files only present a unique problem when using a particularly unique feature. Setting M-AWB on does not break anything when using Lightroom - it just does not add anything, that is that particular unique feature.

AFAIK it is actually a Ricoh feature that has been around for some time and I'd guess that a similar problem will be seen even with Ricoh cameras. They would probably not have the green cast problem but PP would still not be able to do the M-AWB.




To me it's a simple matter of there being a crippling bug in the Apple DNG interpreter that needs to be fixed and a relatively small issue that needs to be fixed in the Pentax DNGs.

The fix in the Pentax DNG will however neither solve the matter of M-AWB in Lightroom, or any other software for that matter, nor will it fix the problem of Apple failing to open the DNGs. What it can do is avoid the ghastly green cast that appears if you don;t auto adjust the WB in PP.

The issue of correctly interpreting M-AWB is not a matter of fixing or debugging but of writing a whole new algorithm that performs the same process as the K-3 performs in camera. That or 'buying' the algoritm from Ricoh.

My guess is that we won't see the Pentax M-AWB implemented in any PP software any time soon. But I would be pleasantly surprised to be proven wrong.

Thee isssue of Apple not reading the DNG at all on the other hand I would think is something that will be quickly and easily solved. I'm sure it's a rather straightforward error in the unknown block skipping is implemented.




Update: In the the K-3 V1.01 firmware it seems like the green cast M-AWB problem has been fixed. M-AWB now renders just like normal AWB in lightroom without any manual intervention, at least as far as I can tell as I've only done a few test shots.

Last edited by lister6520; 12-27-2013 at 09:17 AM. Reason: Update for V1.01:
12-19-2013, 06:50 PM   #75
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It would seem DxO is having problems with K-3 DNG as well.

QuoteQuote:
Hello Kevin,

Thank you for your request.
We are experiencing some issues with the support of the DNG files from the K-3.
Our developers are working on it and a solution will be provided by January 15th.

We apologise for any delay. In the meantime, please use the PEF files.

Read more at: https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/172-pentax-k-3/245969-score-1-pentax-pef-...#ixzz2nyYOFh9l
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