Odd shutter issue - "firmware 1.0" problem?

**DRabbit** · 02-24-2014, 06:09 PM

Not a firmware problem... or at least not one that has been solved with the latest firmware. I've had it happen with 1.0 and 1.0.2.

---------- Post added 02-24-14 at 08:11 PM ----------

Originally posted by audiobomber

The tech who worked on my camera said a digital camera is like a computer; sometimes it screws up and needs rebooting, sometimes it needs the battery pulled to reset. I believe this has a lot of credence. My Blackberry had an issue yesterday, the touch screen wouldn't work. I shut it off and restarted, no luck. I pulled the battery and rebooted the firmware, and the touchscreen came back. I've had numerous similar problems with my laptop. The K-3 issues sound the same to me.

I've had a runaway mirror once in two months' use. No recurrences in the two weeks I've had the camera back from service. Next time it happens, I'll take the tech's advice and remove the battery for ten seconds.

Really, it's not an acceptable answer. And it's also something with the K3. I've shot LOTS of time-lapse, K5-II and K3 side-by-side in the same shooting conditions. Nearly every day I'm shooting I have a problem with the K3, while the K5-II has not given me a second of trouble.

audiobomber · 02-24-2014, 06:25 PM

Originally posted by DRabbit

Really, it's not an acceptable answer. And it's also something with the K3. I've shot LOTS of time-lapse, K5-II and K3 side-by-side in the same shooting conditions. Nearly every day I'm shooting I have a problem with the K3, while the K5-II has not given me a second of trouble.

I agree, it's not acceptable, but rebooting is at least a workaround until they resolve the issue. I didn't pull the battery the day the mirror flop happened to me. I put the camera away and lost a day of shooting because it kept happening. If I had pulled the battery, I believe I could have salvaged the shoot.

jhmos · 02-24-2014, 06:27 PM

Originally posted by stevebrot

I am guessing that it is not a firmware problem or it would have been fixed by now.

Steve

Sure, it could be a hardware problem (but I hope not). As for the time elapsed, I have seen many instances of various PC or device software with stability problems that might have taken years to fix, if at all. First Pentax actually have to actually acknowledge there is a fault and try to reproduce the it. Depending on what development environment they have to use, it can be really difficult to trace an intermittent fault like this. It also needs software engineers put on to the case that are up to it. We have already seen 'stability improvements' listed as a change in recent updates, so maybe they have already had a go at it. Yet not successfully though in this case.

stevebrot · 02-24-2014, 07:35 PM

Originally posted by audiobomber

The tech who worked on my camera said a digital camera is like a computer; sometimes it screws up and needs rebooting, sometimes it needs the battery pulled to reset. I believe this has a lot of credence.

Originally posted by audiobomber

I agree, it's not acceptable, but rebooting is at least a workaround until they resolve the issue.

The tech should have his ears boxed.

Originally posted by jhmos

Sure, it could be a hardware problem (but I hope not). As for the time elapsed, I have seen many instances of various PC or device software with stability problems that might have taken years to fix, if at all.

I work in software development and the servers my stuff deploys to seldom, if ever, require a reboot. There is nothing inherent about computers that says that they will periodically go TU. When there is a software/firmware issue, it is usually due to a memory management issue or simply stinking code. (Android developers, are you listening?) When there is a mechanical issue (bad alignment of critical sensors and/or limit switches), no amount of good software can affect a cure. In at least one case of shutter stutter reported on this site (K-30/K-50? not K-3), there was a mechanical failure of the aperture actuator that resulted in the mechanism not consistently returning home. The problem resulted in the system being placed in an indeterminate state which has potential for any number of failure scenarios.

Anyway, I am following this thread hoping at some point that Ricoh is able to determine a cause. In the mean time, I would hope that you who are having problems push for replacement of your cameras by the dealer (if recently purchased) or by Ricoh.

Steve

jhmos · 02-24-2014, 11:50 PM

The trouble with taking your camera back to get a replacement is that you may be loosing a perfectly good camera that just needs a firmware fix and get a camera in its place that actually does have a fault (there have been reports of replacements with faults). I'll be taking the wait and see approach for a while longer.

**DRabbit** · 02-25-2014, 08:36 AM

Originally posted by jhmos

The trouble with taking your camera back to get a replacement is that you may be loosing a perfectly good camera that just needs a firmware fix and get a camera in its place that actually does have a fault (there have been reports of replacements with faults). I'll be taking the wait and see approach for a while longer.

I agree... considering I'm one of the people who got her K3 replaced, only to have the exact same problem happen on day one of using K3 camera body #2.

stevebrot · 02-25-2014, 08:44 AM

Originally posted by jhmos

The trouble with taking your camera back to get a replacement is that you may be loosing a perfectly good camera that just needs a firmware fix and get a camera in its place that actually does have a fault (there have been reports of replacements with faults). I'll be taking the wait and see approach for a while longer.

According to Consumer Reports, the dSLR fault rate across brands is about 3-4%. I invite you to do the math regarding the probability of getting another random lemon...unless, of course, it is a generic issue. In which case, it is important that the defective cameras make their way back to Ricoh so that they can characterize the fault and remedy their process. If the replacement body is also bad, I would seriously consider a D7100 or a K-5IIs. Make that two K-5IIs for the price of a K-3.

I can only speak for myself, but if I had spent over $1000 for any item and it exhibited a fundamental flaw soon after purchase such as the runaway shutter issue detailed on this thread, I would be in immediate contact with my dealer for a replacement item. I would certainly not sit on my hands and wait for a firmware fix that may or may not be forthcoming. I would also certainly not wait so long that I had to deal with the manufacturer rather than the store that sold it to me.

As for lost revenue associated with downtime, are you saying that you don't have a backup body?

Steve

**DRabbit** · 02-25-2014, 10:03 AM

Originally posted by stevebrot

According to Consumer Reports, the dSLR fault rate across brands is about 3-4%. I invite you to do the math regarding the probability of getting another random lemon...unless, of course, it is a generic issue. In which case, it is important that the defective cameras make their way back to Ricoh so that they can characterize the fault and remedy their process. If the replacement body is also bad, I would seriously consider a D7100 or a K-5IIs. Make that two K-5IIs for the price of a K-3.

Hi Steve,

I got a replacement K3 body. The 2nd body had the same problem on day one, nearly out of the box.

Originally posted by stevebrot

I can only speak for myself, but if I had spent over $1000 for any item and it exhibited a fundamental flaw soon after purchase such as the runaway shutter issue detailed on this thread, I would be in immediate contact with my dealer for a replacement item. I would certainly not sit on my hands and wait for a firmware fix that may or may not be forthcoming. I would also certainly not wait so long that I had to deal with the manufacturer rather than the store that sold it to me.

Well, for me it's a longer story than that because I had some issue with the original K5 and was already dealing with the manufacturer when the K3 problems cropped up. I chose to work with them because I like Pentax cameras in general and the brand, so if I could be helpful to them, that's a good thing for everyone. Lots of testing and two K3 bodies later, the camera is still having problem and will likely, this weekend, be exchanged for a K5-II and K5-IIs.

Originally posted by stevebrot

As for lost revenue associated with downtime, are you saying that you don't have a backup body?

I can only speak for myself, but of course I have a backup. And when I'm shooting time-lapse professionally, I'm actually shooting two cameras simultaneously.... the K5-II and the K3. The K5-II has performed flawlessly... not a second of trouble. It's only the K3 that decides to lock up on nearly every shoot.

**marosari00** · 03-01-2014, 08:18 AM

Adam, have you heard anything from Ricoh on this issue?

A.Yzerr · 03-06-2014, 03:44 PM

I've had a really similar issue happen twice on me.

Both occurred over this last weekend when I was out trying to get some pictures of stars.

I had the camera set up with the battery grip attached.

The camer was in remote mode once, and M.UP mode the second time. Both times it happened in manual exposure.

The first time I thought it was something odd going on with high continuous capture or something similar to do with the remote.

I could only stop it firing by turning the camera off, and even then it continued for some time.

Interestingly enough, the first instance nothing particularly weird happened other than the camera seemed to be taking numerous pictures. However, the second time around the screen actually bugged out and displayed a green set of numbers or something like that.

I managed to capture a short, low quality video with my phone to show what was going on with the screen and the actual shutters going off or whatever was happening.

I'll upload it in a post below this one.

---------- Post added 03-06-14 at 03:12 PM ----------

Originally posted by A.Yzerr

I'll upload it in a post below this one.

It's a lot darker than I recall, though it was at night with the only lightsource being quite a few feet away.

You Tube

**DRabbit** · 03-07-2014, 08:02 AM

Interesting AY... With all the times I've and the lockup, I never had the screen do that.

Can I ask... were you using Live View?
Also, did you have one or two SD cards in camera?

I'm asking because this has a lot to do with the discussion going on in the other thread (https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/172-pentax-k-3/250865-k3-locking-up-while...ime-lapse.html), if you want to contribute there too!

A.Yzerr · 03-07-2014, 09:22 AM

Interestingly enough, I was using Liveview intermittently between the first and second occurrence. However, I was not using it when it actually occurred.

I originally had two memory cards in the camera, though after the first runaway shutter I took the second card out - thinking maybe that was the problem.

I'll go ahead and check that other thread out as well.

**DRabbit** · 03-10-2014, 11:09 AM

Was shooting with only one SD card today and avoiding live-view… problem still cropped up again. It's not either.

Essdubbya · 03-10-2014, 11:16 PM

I just got off the phone to Corey at Sydney office of CRK in Oz.
He had not heard of this problem but he has sent a report to the techs.
I'm not expecting anything much to happen but given that there is a new batch of silvers due in I may see if I can get a swap happening. They may of course choose to simply do a reset and return. I'll see what happens and post the details.

**DRabbit** · 03-11-2014, 08:44 AM

Ess...

I'm so frustrated with hearing "they have not heard of the issue". I've been in touch with them about it since at least December, regularly (Pentax USA). Supposedly, they communicated it to Japan a few weeks ago. I've been through two K3 bodies and had the issue with both. I've been through all firmwares (testing 1.03 today). I keep hearing from other people, and even Pentax "we have no reports of this" or "we can't reproduce it" that I want to scream.

Take a look at my other thread if you haven't already: https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/172-pentax-k-3/250865-k3-locking-up-while...ime-lapse.html

03-10-2014, 11:16 PM	#104
Essdubbya Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Glenorie NSW Photos: Gallery Posts: 45	Spoken with CR Kennedy I just got off the phone to Corey at Sydney office of CRK in Oz. He had not heard of this problem but he has sent a report to the techs. I'm not expecting anything much to happen but given that there is a new batch of silvers due in I may see if I can get a swap happening. They may of course choose to simply do a reset and return. I'll see what happens and post the details.

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02-24-2014, 06:09 PM	#91
DRabbit Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Long Island, NY Photos: Gallery Posts: 593	Not a firmware problem... or at least not one that has been solved with the latest firmware. I've had it happen with 1.0 and 1.0.2. ---------- Post added 02-24-14 at 08:11 PM ---------- Originally posted by audiobomber The tech who worked on my camera said a digital camera is like a computer; sometimes it screws up and needs rebooting, sometimes it needs the battery pulled to reset. I believe this has a lot of credence. My Blackberry had an issue yesterday, the touch screen wouldn't work. I shut it off and restarted, no luck. I pulled the battery and rebooted the firmware, and the touchscreen came back. I've had numerous similar problems with my laptop. The K-3 issues sound the same to me. I've had a runaway mirror once in two months' use. No recurrences in the two weeks I've had the camera back from service. Next time it happens, I'll take the tech's advice and remove the battery for ten seconds. Really, it's not an acceptable answer. And it's also something with the K3. I've shot LOTS of time-lapse, K5-II and K3 side-by-side in the same shooting conditions. Nearly every day I'm shooting I have a problem with the K3, while the K5-II has not given me a second of trouble.

02-24-2014, 06:25 PM	#92
audiobomber Veteran Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Sudbury, Ontario Photos: Albums Posts: 6,806	Originally posted by DRabbit Really, it's not an acceptable answer. And it's also something with the K3. I've shot LOTS of time-lapse, K5-II and K3 side-by-side in the same shooting conditions. Nearly every day I'm shooting I have a problem with the K3, while the K5-II has not given me a second of trouble. I agree, it's not acceptable, but rebooting is at least a workaround until they resolve the issue. I didn't pull the battery the day the mirror flop happened to me. I put the camera away and lost a day of shooting because it kept happening. If I had pulled the battery, I believe I could have salvaged the shoot.

02-24-2014, 06:27 PM	#93
jhmos Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: Melbourne Posts: 111	Originally posted by stevebrot I am guessing that it is not a firmware problem or it would have been fixed by now. Steve Sure, it could be a hardware problem (but I hope not). As for the time elapsed, I have seen many instances of various PC or device software with stability problems that might have taken years to fix, if at all. First Pentax actually have to actually acknowledge there is a fault and try to reproduce the it. Depending on what development environment they have to use, it can be really difficult to trace an intermittent fault like this. It also needs software engineers put on to the case that are up to it. We have already seen 'stability improvements' listed as a change in recent updates, so maybe they have already had a go at it. Yet not successfully though in this case.

02-24-2014, 07:35 PM	#94
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by audiobomber The tech who worked on my camera said a digital camera is like a computer; sometimes it screws up and needs rebooting, sometimes it needs the battery pulled to reset. I believe this has a lot of credence. Originally posted by audiobomber I agree, it's not acceptable, but rebooting is at least a workaround until they resolve the issue. The tech should have his ears boxed. Originally posted by jhmos Sure, it could be a hardware problem (but I hope not). As for the time elapsed, I have seen many instances of various PC or device software with stability problems that might have taken years to fix, if at all. I work in software development and the servers my stuff deploys to seldom, if ever, require a reboot. There is nothing inherent about computers that says that they will periodically go TU. When there is a software/firmware issue, it is usually due to a memory management issue or simply stinking code. (Android developers, are you listening?) When there is a mechanical issue (bad alignment of critical sensors and/or limit switches), no amount of good software can affect a cure. In at least one case of shutter stutter reported on this site (K-30/K-50? not K-3), there was a mechanical failure of the aperture actuator that resulted in the mechanism not consistently returning home. The problem resulted in the system being placed in an indeterminate state which has potential for any number of failure scenarios. Anyway, I am following this thread hoping at some point that Ricoh is able to determine a cause. In the mean time, I would hope that you who are having problems push for replacement of your cameras by the dealer (if recently purchased) or by Ricoh. Steve

02-24-2014, 11:50 PM	#95
jhmos Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: Melbourne Posts: 111	The trouble with taking your camera back to get a replacement is that you may be loosing a perfectly good camera that just needs a firmware fix and get a camera in its place that actually does have a fault (there have been reports of replacements with faults). I'll be taking the wait and see approach for a while longer.

02-25-2014, 08:36 AM	#96
DRabbit Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Long Island, NY Photos: Gallery Posts: 593	Originally posted by jhmos The trouble with taking your camera back to get a replacement is that you may be loosing a perfectly good camera that just needs a firmware fix and get a camera in its place that actually does have a fault (there have been reports of replacements with faults). I'll be taking the wait and see approach for a while longer. I agree... considering I'm one of the people who got her K3 replaced, only to have the exact same problem happen on day one of using K3 camera body #2.

02-25-2014, 08:44 AM	#97
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by jhmos The trouble with taking your camera back to get a replacement is that you may be loosing a perfectly good camera that just needs a firmware fix and get a camera in its place that actually does have a fault (there have been reports of replacements with faults). I'll be taking the wait and see approach for a while longer. According to Consumer Reports, the dSLR fault rate across brands is about 3-4%. I invite you to do the math regarding the probability of getting another random lemon...unless, of course, it is a generic issue. In which case, it is important that the defective cameras make their way back to Ricoh so that they can characterize the fault and remedy their process. If the replacement body is also bad, I would seriously consider a D7100 or a K-5IIs. Make that two K-5IIs for the price of a K-3. I can only speak for myself, but if I had spent over $1000 for any item and it exhibited a fundamental flaw soon after purchase such as the runaway shutter issue detailed on this thread, I would be in immediate contact with my dealer for a replacement item. I would certainly not sit on my hands and wait for a firmware fix that may or may not be forthcoming. I would also certainly not wait so long that I had to deal with the manufacturer rather than the store that sold it to me. As for lost revenue associated with downtime, are you saying that you don't have a backup body? Steve

02-25-2014, 10:03 AM	#98
DRabbit Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Long Island, NY Photos: Gallery Posts: 593	Originally posted by stevebrot According to Consumer Reports, the dSLR fault rate across brands is about 3-4%. I invite you to do the math regarding the probability of getting another random lemon...unless, of course, it is a generic issue. In which case, it is important that the defective cameras make their way back to Ricoh so that they can characterize the fault and remedy their process. If the replacement body is also bad, I would seriously consider a D7100 or a K-5IIs. Make that two K-5IIs for the price of a K-3. Hi Steve, I got a replacement K3 body. The 2nd body had the same problem on day one, nearly out of the box. Originally posted by stevebrot I can only speak for myself, but if I had spent over $1000 for any item and it exhibited a fundamental flaw soon after purchase such as the runaway shutter issue detailed on this thread, I would be in immediate contact with my dealer for a replacement item. I would certainly not sit on my hands and wait for a firmware fix that may or may not be forthcoming. I would also certainly not wait so long that I had to deal with the manufacturer rather than the store that sold it to me. Well, for me it's a longer story than that because I had some issue with the original K5 and was already dealing with the manufacturer when the K3 problems cropped up. I chose to work with them because I like Pentax cameras in general and the brand, so if I could be helpful to them, that's a good thing for everyone. Lots of testing and two K3 bodies later, the camera is still having problem and will likely, this weekend, be exchanged for a K5-II and K5-IIs. Originally posted by stevebrot As for lost revenue associated with downtime, are you saying that you don't have a backup body? I can only speak for myself, but of course I have a backup. And when I'm shooting time-lapse professionally, I'm actually shooting two cameras simultaneously.... the K5-II and the K3. The K5-II has performed flawlessly... not a second of trouble. It's only the K3 that decides to lock up on nearly every shoot.

03-01-2014, 08:18 AM	#99
marosari00 Site Supporter Join Date: May 2008 Location: Melbourne, Florida Photos: Gallery Posts: 147	Adam, have you heard anything from Ricoh on this issue?

03-07-2014, 08:02 AM	#101
DRabbit Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Long Island, NY Photos: Gallery Posts: 593	Interesting AY... With all the times I've and the lockup, I never had the screen do that. Can I ask... were you using Live View? Also, did you have one or two SD cards in camera? I'm asking because this has a lot to do with the discussion going on in the other thread (https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/172-pentax-k-3/250865-k3-locking-up-while...ime-lapse.html), if you want to contribute there too!

03-07-2014, 09:22 AM	#102
A.Yzerr Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 29	Interestingly enough, I was using Liveview intermittently between the first and second occurrence. However, I was not using it when it actually occurred. I originally had two memory cards in the camera, though after the first runaway shutter I took the second card out - thinking maybe that was the problem. I'll go ahead and check that other thread out as well.

03-10-2014, 11:09 AM	#103
DRabbit Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Long Island, NY Photos: Gallery Posts: 593	Was shooting with only one SD card today and avoiding live-view… problem still cropped up again. It's not either.

03-11-2014, 08:44 AM	#105
DRabbit Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Long Island, NY Photos: Gallery Posts: 593	Ess... I'm so frustrated with hearing "they have not heard of the issue". I've been in touch with them about it since at least December, regularly (Pentax USA). Supposedly, they communicated it to Japan a few weeks ago. I've been through two K3 bodies and had the issue with both. I've been through all firmwares (testing 1.03 today). I keep hearing from other people, and even Pentax "we have no reports of this" or "we can't reproduce it" that I want to scream. Take a look at my other thread if you haven't already: https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/172-pentax-k-3/250865-k3-locking-up-while...ime-lapse.html