Raw noise reduction

**7samurai** · 11-14-2013, 01:16 AM

If I remember correctly, the K-5 introduced noise reduction in raw.
Is the K-3 the same?
Does any of the settings have any impact on RAW on the K-3? ie highlight correction, shadow correction?
Raw usually means raw, but since the K-5 is using noise reduction, I thought I should ask.

Adam · 11-14-2013, 01:24 AM

You control noise reduction on your own in raw. The camera does include some default settings AFAIK, but they are conservative and can be overriden.

Shadow/highlight corrections can also be used in raw, but again, you ultimately get to decide how to tweak them when you develop the raw file.

rawr · 11-14-2013, 02:15 AM

Originally posted by 7samurai

Raw usually means raw

I assume you are defining 'RAW' as something like 'unprocessed image data dumped straight from the sensor onto the SD card' . No camera does that.

By the time any image on a digital camera has gone from the sensor to the SD card it passes through many bits of hardware, undergoes a variety of conversions and filtering, and is subject to many stages of signal processing. One or more of those stages is always noise processing. Whether traces of NR remain visible in the RAW data that gets written to the SD card is only a matter of degree.

**7samurai** · 11-14-2013, 02:39 AM

My mistake, I think it I found the DXOMark review on the K-5 that talked about it. It referred to the K-5 Signal to Noise where it refered to the smoothing the K-5 does at around 2500 ISO. Not noise reduction.
I know I may have to wait for DXOMark for the K-3 review, but did anyone know if they are doing that with the K-3?

Tests and reviews for the camera Pentax K-5 - DxOMark

Giklab · 11-14-2013, 07:31 AM

But the K-5 does apply NR in raw.... Even though it's only light chrominance removal.

rawr · 11-14-2013, 08:11 AM

Originally posted by 7samurai

the DXOMark review on the K-5 that talked about it.

I know what you are saying. DxO talked about the issue of noise reduction 'smoothing' in Pentax long before the K-5: eg
DxOMark review for Pentax cameras - DxOMark
and
Half-cooked RAW - DxOMark

It's been controversial ever since, perhaps because whilst this 'smoothing' is supposed to degrade detail at higher ISO's, it's doesn't seem to visibly do that in cameras like the K-x, K-5 or K-30.

ChrisJ · 11-14-2013, 09:26 AM

The Raw files hold all the data generated by the camera including any data required for pre-processing on opening, such as noise reduction, sharpening, lens data etc, CA reduction etc., whether or not that data is actually applied to the image depends on the software you are using. By default Raw Therapee just de-mosics the image file though it can be set up to automate certain algorithms.

Raw Therapee - Download

Currently Adobe Camera Raw is applying some algorithms but not all in the K3 DNG files, MAWB for one. It probably won't until a new (version 8.3) is released in December and may be not then, currently the K3 is not on the update list.

I noticed this when opening file from my Panasonic GH2, open them in Raw Therapee and you will be surprised at just how bad their lenses are, distortions, vignetting, CA aberrations virtually every lens fault there is are all there, all magically disappear when the algorithms (Panasonic call the op codes) are applied. It does make you wonder just how good these cameras really are and how much is in the algorithms that are being applied, and why we have to pay such large sums for what are pretty basic lenses!

Just for the record Pentax lenses don't have any of the above when opened in Raw Therapee.

Chris

**7samurai** · 11-14-2013, 09:54 AM

Originally posted by rawr

I know what you are saying. DxO talked about the issue of noise reduction 'smoothing' in Pentax long before the K-5: eg
DxOMark review for Pentax cameras - DxOMark
and
Half-cooked RAW - DxOMark

It's been controversial ever since, perhaps because whilst this 'smoothing' is supposed to degrade detail at higher ISO's, it's doesn't seem to visibly do that in cameras like the K-x, K-5 or K-30.

Very interesting stuff. Thank you for the links. Very much appreciated.
I'm now wondering if the red channel has more smoothing? or if it's just normal for Sony sensors. My K-x was always red happy.

11-14-2013, 01:16 AM	#1
7samurai Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Rancho Cucamonga, CA Photos: Albums Posts: 474	Raw noise reduction If I remember correctly, the K-5 introduced noise reduction in raw. Is the K-3 the same? Does any of the settings have any impact on RAW on the K-3? ie highlight correction, shadow correction? Raw usually means raw, but since the K-5 is using noise reduction, I thought I should ask.

11-14-2013, 01:24 AM	#2
Adam Administrator Site Webmaster Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Arizona Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 51,595	You control noise reduction on your own in raw. The camera does include some default settings AFAIK, but they are conservative and can be overriden. Shadow/highlight corrections can also be used in raw, but again, you ultimately get to decide how to tweak them when you develop the raw file. Adam PentaxForums.com Webmaster (Site Usage Guide \| Site Help \| My Photography) PentaxForums.com server and development costs are user-supported. You can help cover these costs by donating or purchasing one of our Pentax eBooks. Or, buy your photo gear from our affiliates, Adorama, B&H Photo, KEH, or Topaz Labs, and get FREE Marketplace access - click here to see how! Trusted Pentax retailers:

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11-14-2013, 02:15 AM	#3
rawr Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 11,913	Originally posted by 7samurai Raw usually means raw I assume you are defining 'RAW' as something like 'unprocessed image data dumped straight from the sensor onto the SD card' . No camera does that. By the time any image on a digital camera has gone from the sensor to the SD card it passes through many bits of hardware, undergoes a variety of conversions and filtering, and is subject to many stages of signal processing. One or more of those stages is always noise processing. Whether traces of NR remain visible in the RAW data that gets written to the SD card is only a matter of degree.

11-14-2013, 02:39 AM	#4
7samurai Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Rancho Cucamonga, CA Photos: Albums Posts: 474 Original Poster	My mistake, I think it I found the DXOMark review on the K-5 that talked about it. It referred to the K-5 Signal to Noise where it refered to the smoothing the K-5 does at around 2500 ISO. Not noise reduction. I know I may have to wait for DXOMark for the K-3 review, but did anyone know if they are doing that with the K-3? Tests and reviews for the camera Pentax K-5 - DxOMark

11-14-2013, 07:31 AM	#5
Giklab Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Slovenia Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,182	But the K-5 does apply NR in raw.... Even though it's only light chrominance removal.

11-14-2013, 08:11 AM	#6
rawr Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 11,913	Originally posted by 7samurai the DXOMark review on the K-5 that talked about it. I know what you are saying. DxO talked about the issue of noise reduction 'smoothing' in Pentax long before the K-5: eg DxOMark review for Pentax cameras - DxOMark and Half-cooked RAW - DxOMark It's been controversial ever since, perhaps because whilst this 'smoothing' is supposed to degrade detail at higher ISO's, it's doesn't seem to visibly do that in cameras like the K-x, K-5 or K-30.

11-14-2013, 09:26 AM	#7
ChrisJ Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Eckington, Derbyshire UK Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 316	The Raw files hold all the data generated by the camera including any data required for pre-processing on opening, such as noise reduction, sharpening, lens data etc, CA reduction etc., whether or not that data is actually applied to the image depends on the software you are using. By default Raw Therapee just de-mosics the image file though it can be set up to automate certain algorithms. Raw Therapee - Download Currently Adobe Camera Raw is applying some algorithms but not all in the K3 DNG files, MAWB for one. It probably won't until a new (version 8.3) is released in December and may be not then, currently the K3 is not on the update list. I noticed this when opening file from my Panasonic GH2, open them in Raw Therapee and you will be surprised at just how bad their lenses are, distortions, vignetting, CA aberrations virtually every lens fault there is are all there, all magically disappear when the algorithms (Panasonic call the op codes) are applied. It does make you wonder just how good these cameras really are and how much is in the algorithms that are being applied, and why we have to pay such large sums for what are pretty basic lenses! Just for the record Pentax lenses don't have any of the above when opened in Raw Therapee. Chris

11-14-2013, 09:54 AM	#8
7samurai Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Rancho Cucamonga, CA Photos: Albums Posts: 474 Original Poster	Originally posted by rawr I know what you are saying. DxO talked about the issue of noise reduction 'smoothing' in Pentax long before the K-5: eg DxOMark review for Pentax cameras - DxOMark and Half-cooked RAW - DxOMark It's been controversial ever since, perhaps because whilst this 'smoothing' is supposed to degrade detail at higher ISO's, it's doesn't seem to visibly do that in cameras like the K-x, K-5 or K-30. Very interesting stuff. Thank you for the links. Very much appreciated. I'm now wondering if the red channel has more smoothing? or if it's just normal for Sony sensors. My K-x was always red happy.