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03-15-2014, 07:40 AM   #136
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And most of us don't have this problem- so don't delay.

03-15-2014, 09:22 AM   #137
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Surely there is some enterprising engineer amongst us who can measure the delay between preflash and flash for the K-3 and other models. I would imagine a storage oscilloscope and photometer would do the trick! The results would be very interesting, I'm sure!

Cheers,
Lou
03-15-2014, 03:26 PM   #138
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QuoteOriginally posted by lm4187 Quote
Surely there is some enterprising engineer amongst us who can measure the delay between preflash and flash for the K-3 and other models. I would imagine a storage oscilloscope and photometer would do the trick! The results would be very interesting, I'm sure!

Cheers,
Lou
I'll try top find some time to do it tomorrow. I have a K-r, K-30 and a K-3. Also a Q10 if that is of any interest.
03-16-2014, 03:19 AM - 4 Likes   #139
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So I've just spent a couple of hours setting up and testing. I could only do the K-3 and K30 though because none of my IR remotes are working.
I tested both cameras with internal flash and with a Metz 58-AF2 first in manual then in P-TTL

Internal flash:
K-30: 20-30mS to preflash and 120-135mS main flash
K-3: 170-200mS to preflash and 280-320mS to main flash

Metz Flash in P-TTL
K-30: 20-40mS to preflash and 130-160mS for main flash
K-3: 190-220mS to preflash and 310-330mS for main flash

Metz Flash in manual
K-30: 120-130mS to main flash
K-3: 115 to 125mS to main flash

I used wired remote and triggered the oscilloscope timebase on the contact of the full push of the shutter. For all tests I pressed and kept half press for about 5 seconds to make sure I don't include any wakeup or AF delays and then pressed all the way to shoot. The delays are both from the full press, so when I say 170mS to preflash and 280mS to main flash the 280mS is not in addition to the 170, so the main flash fires at 280mS after full press of the shutter.

* With internal flash or external flash with P-TTL the K-3 is about 150mS slower than the K-30. As far as the delay to the main flash is concerned that is more than double the K-3.
* It seems to make very little difference whether using external or internal flash, the external only adding some 10 to 20mS.
* With an external flash in manual mode both cameras are pretty much the same
* The additional delay for the K-3 seems to be entirely due to the excessive delay for the pre-flash. The time between pre-flash and main flash is the same for both cameras - about 110mS

To summarise, with the K-3 the exposure occurs a full third of a second after pushing the shutter release whereas the K-30 does it in just over a tenth of a second.
The K-3 seems to spend much more time doing nothing (200mS) than it does calculating the exposure, lifting the mirror and all the rest (110mS).

03-16-2014, 04:06 AM   #140
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QuoteOriginally posted by lister6520 Quote
So I've just spent a couple of hours setting up and testing. I could only do the K-3 and K30 though because none of my IR remotes are working.
I tested both cameras with internal flash and with a Metz 58-AF2 first in manual then in P-TTL

To summarise, with the K-3 the exposure occurs a full third of a second after pushing the shutter release whereas the K-30 does it in just over a tenth of a second.
The K-3 seems to spend much more time doing nothing (200mS) than it does calculating the exposure, lifting the mirror and all the rest (110mS).


The data from your test seems consistent with the reported experience... but it's good to put actual numbers to the issue.

I can't think of any good reason for a delay prior to pre-flash, but it seems to me that it shouldn't be difficult for the Pentax/Ricoh engineers to determine in which area the firmware is spinning prior to the pre-flash,

dave k
03-16-2014, 04:17 AM   #141
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QuoteOriginally posted by gosman Quote
And most of us don't have this problem- so don't delay.
And by that do you mean that the issue doesn't really impact you, or that your camera is the only unit that doesn't have this symptom?
03-16-2014, 08:48 AM   #142
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QuoteOriginally posted by lister6520 Quote
So I've just spent a couple of hours setting up and testing.
Many thanks. Now we (rather, they--the engineers at Pentax) have something to work with.

Cheers,
Lou
03-16-2014, 11:53 PM   #143
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QuoteOriginally posted by lister6520 Quote
So I've just spent a couple of hours setting up and testing. I could only do the K-3 and K30 though because none of my IR remotes are working.
I tested both cameras with internal flash and with a Metz 58-AF2 first in manual then in P-TTL

Internal flash:
K-30: 20-30mS to preflash and 120-135mS main flash
K-3: 170-200mS to preflash and 280-320mS to main flash

Metz Flash in P-TTL
K-30: 20-40mS to preflash and 130-160mS for main flash
K-3: 190-220mS to preflash and 310-330mS for
Thanks for taking the time to do this. Sounds about right given my experience.
Cheers,
Darren.

03-17-2014, 11:09 AM   #144
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QuoteOriginally posted by lm4187 Quote
Many thanks. Now we (rather, they--the engineers at Pentax) have something to work with.

Cheers,
Lou
Not unless someone reports this issue to Ricoh engineers! I dont know how that happens though? :confused
03-18-2014, 02:13 AM   #145
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PENTAX JAPAN e-mail address: pentax.gs@ricoh-imaging.co.jp
Camera Support page: https://www1.cws.ricoh.co.jp/sss/Inq/inqInfo?name=dc_e_contact

Last edited by dc0001; 03-18-2014 at 08:56 AM.
03-21-2014, 08:04 AM   #146
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Sent an e-mail to Pentax US support about this thread. They have forwarded it to Japan. Time will tell. (No pun intended.)

Cheers,
Lou
04-22-2014, 11:06 PM   #147
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Has anyone figured out how to overcome the K-3's delay issue with flashes? I don't use flash anymore because of this bug. All beautiful emotions of people are missed due to the delay.
What I found out is that no matter of the settings, the K-3 always uses a second-curtain synchronisation. Maybe the bug hides here. When I switch on second-curtain synchronisation on my Metz 58 AF-2, then the camera uses a first-curtain syncronization. However it doesn't effect the delay in any way.

In order to get rid of the delay I decided to use my flash in Auto mode. At first, I thought that everyhing got in a right place but then I found a strange behaviour with my camera exposure parameters. For example, the right exposure in camera's M mode and in P-TTL is 1/30, f2.0, ISO2000. When I switch from P-TTL to Auto, my setting automatically change to 1/100 f5.6, ISO2000. There is no way how I can get the shutter speed longer! With such settings my shots become too overexposed. If I select Av mode on my camera and select auto ISO, then ISO becomes something like ISO200 and the shots become well balanced. But why can't I change my exposure settings the way I need in Auto flash mode?
05-22-2014, 03:27 AM   #148
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QuoteOriginally posted by lister6520 Quote
So I've just spent a couple of hours setting up and testing. I could only do the K-3 and K30 though because none of my IR remotes are working.
I tested both cameras with internal flash and with a Metz 58-AF2 first in manual then in P-TTL

Internal flash:
K-30: 20-30mS to preflash and 120-135mS main flash
K-3: 170-200mS to preflash and 280-320mS to main flash

Metz Flash in P-TTL
K-30: 20-40mS to preflash and 130-160mS for main flash
K-3: 190-220mS to preflash and 310-330mS for main flash

Metz Flash in manual
K-30: 120-130mS to main flash
K-3: 115 to 125mS to main flash

I used wired remote and triggered the oscilloscope timebase on the contact of the full push of the shutter. For all tests I pressed and kept half press for about 5 seconds to make sure I don't include any wakeup or AF delays and then pressed all the way to shoot. The delays are both from the full press, so when I say 170mS to preflash and 280mS to main flash the 280mS is not in addition to the 170, so the main flash fires at 280mS after full press of the shutter.

* With internal flash or external flash with P-TTL the K-3 is about 150mS slower than the K-30. As far as the delay to the main flash is concerned that is more than double the K-3.
* It seems to make very little difference whether using external or internal flash, the external only adding some 10 to 20mS.
* With an external flash in manual mode both cameras are pretty much the same
* The additional delay for the K-3 seems to be entirely due to the excessive delay for the pre-flash. The time between pre-flash and main flash is the same for both cameras - about 110mS

To summarise, with the K-3 the exposure occurs a full third of a second after pushing the shutter release whereas the K-30 does it in just over a tenth of a second.
The K-3 seems to spend much more time doing nothing (200mS) than it does calculating the exposure, lifting the mirror and all the rest (110mS).
I have just bought brand new K-3 and also experience this issue. Your numbers seem to precisely match what is going on here - the camera just seems to freeze for 1/3 s before doing anything. Thanks for taking the time to measure it. I hope Ricoh can fix it with firmware because now P-TTL is only usable for shooting static objects. Event taking a portrait is cumbersome as it is difficult to hit between eye blinks using my current experience and timing. K-5 II exhibits no delay at all, it feels like it fired instantly. Also my old Canon 450D did not have any such issue.
05-22-2014, 02:50 PM   #149
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QuoteOriginally posted by klakier Quote
I have just bought brand new K-3 and also experience this issue. Your numbers seem to precisely match what is going on here - the camera just seems to freeze for 1/3 s before doing anything. Thanks for taking the time to measure it. I hope Ricoh can fix it with firmware because now P-TTL is only usable for shooting static objects. Event taking a portrait is cumbersome as it is difficult to hit between eye blinks using my current experience and timing. K-5 II exhibits no delay at all, it feels like it fired instantly. Also my old Canon 450D did not have any such issue.
For what its worth, my K-3 (purchased less than a month ago, firmware v1.03) has a slight hesitation (a few milliseconds at most) relative to non-flash exposures. This is the case for both the on-board flash and my Sigma EF 610 DG Super. While I don't have another recent body to test against, the lag is much less than my K10D with the same flash.


Steve
05-22-2014, 08:53 PM   #150
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I've been using a Metz 50AF1 on the K3 with a flash extender and long lens. The flash shots have a very slight delay compared to the non flash shots. Not enough to miss anything.
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