[MikePerham]

Hello!

I have another problem with my brand new baby...

When I use the flash, internal or external, there is a delay/lag between the moment I press the button and the moment the K-3 effectively take the photo...

Anybody experience this?

No noticeable delay on my K3 either. The only observable issue is those prone to blinking do so because of the preflash ...but that's rare and only with those really sensitive to flash.

[audiobomber]

I use my Sigma 530 flash in two scenarios, for event photography and for macro. I did not notice the delay for event shooting, it did not cause me a problem. With macros OTOH, I am severely bothered. The delay is long enough that I missed focus on many more shots than I do using the K20D. (Do not bother to tell me about the increased resolution of the K-3. That is not the problem. The problem is that the K-3 does not fire the flash when I release the shutter in P-TTL mode, no red-eye compensation.)

I am now forced to use my trusty old K20D for flash-assisted macro shooting. I could use manual flash on the K-3, but I like P-TTL.

[stevebrot]

No noticeable delay on my K3 either. The only observable issue is those prone to blinking do so because of the preflash ...but that's rare and only with those really sensitive to flash.

Zombie thread alert!

Some people notice the relatively long* P-TTL lag and some don't. It has been well-documented in this thread and elsewhere.


Steve


* There is always some lag with P-TTL as compared to manual flash, but it seems to be longer on the K-3 that other cameras.

[audiobomber]

Zombie thread alert!

The thread will die if and when the problem does. I went almost two years not noticing or caring about flash lag, but had not used the K-3 and flash for macro shooting. It is useless to me for that purpose, which matters. I was considering adding a K-3 II, but it has the same issue.

[thehiko]

So I just recently used the flash for the first time, and noticed this lag. With some informal tests, I can see it's about a 0.2 second delay. (This is with the pop-up flash btw.) Given how so much emphasis is put on fast focus times and speedy performance, a 0.2 second delay because of flash (pre-focused) does not seem acceptable.

I contacted Ricoh Japan about it because I can't seem to find an email address on Ricoh US. Support links just take me to Ricoh Connect and I can't find a way to sign up...?

Anyhow, I asked whether they are aware of this phenomenon, if it was normal, and if they would be updating this behavior in a FW update. In case anyone still cares, I got the following reply (roughly translated):

"Compared to previous models, the K-3's flash has been designed in a way where the user will experience a slight lag. This was done to increase the metering accuracy with P-TTL, and the algorithm has been modified. Therefore, there are control constraints which cause this time lag.

We will take your feedback and notify the proper department for future reference."

[bdery]

I could use manual flash on the K-3, but I like P-TTL.

For macro, I find that manual everything usually works much better. Plus you can easily set your flash off-camera for better light effects.

[audiobomber]

For macro, I find that manual everything usually works much better. Plus you can easily set your flash off-camera for better light effects.

I'm guessing you also use a tripod?

[bdery]

I'm guessing you also use a tripod?

Most of the time, but not always. Sometimes the remote flash is just in my left hand, the camera in my right.

[afmeck]

I contacted Ricoh Japan about it because I can't seem to find an email address on Ricoh US. Support links just take me to Ricoh Connect and I can't find a way to sign up...?

Anyhow, I asked whether they are aware of this phenomenon, if it was normal, and if they would be updating this behavior in a FW update. In case anyone still cares, I got the following reply (roughly translated):

"Compared to previous models, the K-3's flash has been designed in a way where the user will experience a slight lag. This was done to increase the metering accuracy with P-TTL, and the algorithm has been modified. Therefore, there are control constraints which cause this time lag.

We will take your feedback and notify the proper department for future reference."

Thanks for the update, thehiko. Did you pursue it any further? I'm asking because I just noticed it on my K3 (even with the firmware 1.21 update) which makes it unusable for most of my shooting (birds and insects in overcast conditions).

In their response to you, Ricoh seem to be saying the lag was intentional which is weird because other people report that the latest firmware update fixed it (https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/172-pentax-k-3/297103-flash-lag-fixed-fw-1-21-a-4.html) and still others report no lag, even without updates.

If, as Ricoh seems to be claiming, the lag was a known issue then they should have disclosed it to potential buyers who rely on high-speed sync, such as myself, so we could have made an informed decision before buying. If they refuse to admit fault and replace the faulty copies, it seems we have no real choice but to jump ship and move to a (hopefully) more reliable brand.

I'll also be contacting Ricoh and demanding a resolution but in the meantime I'm wondering how other people are dealing with this? I can't think of a workaround or a reason to stay with Pentax, unless offered a working replacement.

[stevebrot]

In their response to you, Ricoh seem to be saying the lag was intentional which is weird because other people report that the latest firmware update fixed it (Flash lag fixed / FW 1.21) and still others report no lag, even without updates.

Welcome to the Pentax Forums!

I took part in the linked thread and it was impression that the question of whether anything is "fixed" is still disputed. The discussion dissolved into an argument over whose measurement methodology was most valid. That being said, I do believe that the consensus was that P-TTL is not the best solution for any application where timing is critical. For those cases, auto (sensor on flash) or full manual are the tools of choice.

I'll also be contacting Ricoh and demanding a resolution but in the meantime I'm wondering how other people are dealing with this? I can't think of a workaround or a reason to stay with Pentax, unless offered a working replacement.

The workarounds are manual flash or auto flash, both of which have zero lag.

...I was typing away and just took a moment to reread your post in greater detail. From what I can tell, your use case is HSS under daylight conditions. I also looked at your profile and noted that you have both a K-5 and K-7 in your quiver so you have experience with the Pentax system and are familiar the P-TTL performance on the earlier models. You might be better off with Nikon or Canon. Both are P-TTL systems, but their flash integration is more mature than Pentax and may offer you snappier performance. A visit to your local dealer to compare kit one-on-one might be time well spent.


Steve

[afmeck]

Hi, Steve. Thanks for the reply.

You're right about my primary use of flash: daylight conditions. Hence the need for HSS.

You're also right about my experience with PTTL on the K7 and K5 which means I've been dealing with unreliable exposures for some time. The difference between that problem and this, for me, is that I could deal with it and rarely, if ever, felt it completely ruined the shot. In the case of the shutter lag, I simply can't get the vast majority of shots.

I'm still perplexed about: 1) the fact that the lag seems to only be present in a minority of K3's 2) is remedied for some by the FW 1.21 update but not for others and 3). Ricoh's statement that the lag was a known issue in production and a deliberate way to compensate for finally getting PTTL exposure right. It doesn't add up.

I hate to give up on Pentax at this stage, mostly because I'm pretty heavily invested and living in China which could make selling my kit more complicated. But also because I like where they're going with better long lenses and now a full-frame. The K3 seemed so promising. Such a shame for them to shun an entire segment of clientele (wildlife/sports photographers) now.

Like I said, though, I still need to get a response from them. I hope everyone else with this problem is also beating on the door.

Adam

[pavare]

Glad I read this thread before upgrading from the alpha300

It actually steared me away from the K3 towards D7200 which is perfect for my purposes:
high ISO (10000 and up) , slow(ish) shutter aided by image stabilisation, high DOF (small appt) and 2nd ctn fill flash...

HOWEVER, the D7200 has been reported to loose shadow-detail below iso 3500 (google /youtube reports, not own experience so far)
at lower iso, the D7100 seems to be the better choice.

I'm not writing this to promote Nikon, just to emphasise the importance of doing some research(and even renting/borowing) before buying

There are no (or verry few) bad camera's/brands, but even within one brand it seems difficult to define which camera suits your specific needs.

Still hoping Pentax will be able to resolve the issue though,
perhaps they could include an option to choose between 'exact but slow ttl' and the 'fast but less reliable' one,
(if they can do it for 'shutter priority' versus 'release priority', why not give users this option too ? )

If you feel this post is off-topic, feel free to remove it

Meanwhile, best regards and 'happy shooting',
Patrick

[stevebrot]

1) the fact that the lag seems to only be present in a minority of K3's

Not a fact, though I can understand how it might look that way. There are differing perceptions between users with most not noticing anything in normal shooting. The revelation usually comes when they actually compare manual vs. P-TTL. To the best of my knowledge, all users who have looked for the lag with they K-3 or K-3II have found it. The difference in total shutter latency is obvious, though not significant for most of us who don't depend on flash to capture "the decisive moment".

Likewise the efficacy of the 1.21 firmware upgrade is in serious doubt, IMHO. Unless the guy who did the oscilloscope work some time back is willing to redo his work, it is unlikely that any objective data will be available.

Mind you, my understanding is not the result of any scientific study. You might want to start a new forum poll asking whether users are able to discern a significant lag for P-TTL vs. manual for the K-3 or K-3II.


Steve

[stevebrot]

Such a shame for them to shun an entire segment of clientele (wildlife/sports photographers) now.

Sorry, but I know a couple of professional wildlife photographers and flash is not part of their kit. For sports, blinding the subject in mid-play is not advisable and may lead to physical injury to contestant and/or the photographer.


Steve

[stevebrot]

If you feel this post is off-topic, feel free to remove it

Your post is on topic, but you seem to be in a rut. It may be time to contribute on some other topics. Multiple posts may build the case in Google that a serious problem exists, but a careful examination of the threads on this site indicate that only a handful of PF users see the lag as a significant problem. The serious flash folk recognize the limitations of and don't use P-TTL. The occasional flash users aren't bothered by a short lag.

So...how about seeing if your work might liven up one of the photo sharing threads:

Mini-Challenges, Games, and Photo Stories - PentaxForums.com


Steve