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11-19-2015, 07:20 AM   #256
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QuoteOriginally posted by thehiko Quote
Yes I do admit I didn't research this part when deciding on a camera system. So yea I can't really fault anyone but myself. It didn't really cross my mind for DSLRs, given that they are not point-and-shoots, and geared toward the photocentric and pro crowd.

I have accepted the idea of Ricoh likely not prioritizing a fix for this. As I said, they stated it was intentional for exposure accuracy, and while I can hope for positive things to come in the future, without droves of users sending comments to them, I do not expect much.
Well, I also admit that I didn't 'research' high-speed sync capability or shutter latency before buying the K3. I read plenty of reviews and was well aware of the shutter flapping bug but knew that it wasn't affecting all K3s and that a firmware update had been issued that would at least stop it when it started flapping. There was never a shutter latency problem with the K7, K5, or any of the previous generation, as far as I knew.

I'd also read reports that pttl was producing more consistent results. I figured it was worth the risk, considering the other upgrades I would benefit from and I guess I just assumed that pttl and hss would be in sync with the shutter button, since, I'm willing to bet, they are with every previous Pentax flagship digital camera. To be honest, it never crossed my mind. Why should it? It's clearly stated in the specs.

Sorry for the rant, but I don't see why we should be made to feel like we have to defend our expectations of having a working system as advertised, or simply lowering our expectations and accepting that we're back to the pre-ttl days with a flagship camera (at least for moving subjects). Honestly, if we just let this slide and accept the creative limitations, then what's next?

To anyone who hasn't yet, why not just report the problem to Ricoh? Shouldn't they at least know about it so they can keep trying to improve the system and know that people are dissatisfied? I don't see how silence benefits anybody here. In fact, I hope the mods will consider making this a sticky so that droves of owners will be encouraged to report it. I'd be happy to draft a petition.

11-19-2015, 07:59 AM   #257
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Stevebrot, this is a flaw. The latency makes pttl and hss unusable for fast moving objects. I'm certain that the Pentax engineers are aware of the problem, and that there isn't a firmware fix for essentially a hardware limitation. Probably some slowness in inter component communication, or some component requiring time to stabilize for the critical sensor readings necessary for pttl. It is something akin to missing a shot because It takes seconds for the thing to turn on after you flip the switch

The workaround is using manual flash settings. 1/8 or 1/16 power has a very short flash duration. The body has to be held stable to not introduce blur during the long shutter opening. Hss will work for fill with something not moving.

It is really hard to get nice results using a flash while shooting wildlife at the best of times. A bit of light to fill shadows and get your shutter speed up in dark corners, add some contrast to improve details, all the while not ruining the eyes or making a smeared mess of the background, or having a hot spot filled shot where it is damp. No automatic setting will make it all work, no matter who makes it. There are probably half a dozen scenarios to set up for. Having two of them not possible due to latency is frustrating.
11-19-2015, 10:10 AM   #258
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QuoteOriginally posted by derekkite Quote
Stevebrot, this is a flaw.
It is what it is. It is only a "flaw" if user expectations are not met and for P-TTL, most K-3 owners are basically happy. After all, the common response is, "What lag?". That does not mean that those who need less latency for their work are a bunch of kooks, only that their needs were not part of the design goals.

QuoteOriginally posted by derekkite Quote
Hss will work for fill with something not moving.
I am glad you made this point. HSS is of no value if you are wanting to stop motion with flash. The duration is always longer (> 6ms) than the X-sync dwell.

QuoteOriginally posted by derekkite Quote
It is really hard to get nice results using a flash while shooting wildlife at the best of times.
Yep, and even with a Better Beamer (or similar extender), it is hard to overcome the 2+ stop handicap imposed by HSS. P-TTL and HSS/P-TTL are tools as are speedlights and manual technique. Some tools work better with some systems than with others.

What I find strange is the lack of complaint about shutter latency in general. In researching this issue, I was surprised to find that the K-3 has almost twice the base latency as some competing product and that the K-3II is better, but still not up with the pack. That is why I suggested that folk with very specific performance requirements should check the kit (preferably as a field test) before purchase. A K-3 + AF540 FGZII (or equivalent Metz) is a fairly large investment to make only to find that the kit does not meet needs for power, responsiveness, or cycle time.*


Steve

* I have the Sigma EF 610 DG Super and am fairly "meh" regarding the P-TTL user experience despite a high level of compliance with the Pentax protocol. If I had put out the big bucks for the AF 540 FGZ, I would have felt a little cheated except that at least that flash has the option for "Auto" operation using its on-board sensor.
11-20-2015, 01:33 AM   #259
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QuoteOriginally posted by derekkite Quote
The latency makes pttl and hss unusable for fast moving objects.
Hi, drekkite. I appreciate your contribution and I'm sorry to pick apart your post like this, but it helps illustrate some important points that I've been trying to make, admittedly not as clearly as could be. Truth is, I don't have enough time to respond to all the counterpoints being made and I don't really understand the motivation behind them.

To the above statement, just so everyone is clear on this, you're referring to fill flash, right? There seems to be some confusion about that point as some have been quick to point out that you can't 'freeze' a fast-moving subject with hss, which is true and why no one is suggesting that. Personally, since I mainly shoot wildlife in natural daylight settings, fill is my main requirement of flash and yes, if 'the lag' is indeed present in all K3s (and K3IIs) then pttl and hss are unusable for moving subjects. They don't even have to be moving fast, just enough to miss that perfect, maybe once-in-a-lifetime, publishable, and/or money-making moment.

QuoteOriginally posted by derekkite Quote
I'm certain that the Pentax engineers are aware of the problem, and that there isn't a firmware fix for essentially a hardware limitation
I see that you're in beautiful Nelson, BC and not far from my home town of Whitefish, MT. I'd love to get up into the Selkirks sometime. Have you actually reported the problem to Ricoh Canada, then? The response I posted just yesterday, I think, clearly states that it hasn't been reported. Could you please share the response you were given either here or in a PM, or if I've overlooked it in the thread, provide a link? Thanks.

QuoteOriginally posted by derekkite Quote
The workaround is using manual flash settings. 1/8 or 1/16 power has a very short flash duration. The body has to be held stable to not introduce blur during the long shutter opening.
I must admit, I'm not an expert strobist since my needs are, so far, fairly simple so could you elaborate on this technique and what it works around? Let's not forget that if you're forced to use a longer shutter speed in ambient light, even at max x-sync speed of 1/180, then you'll need to stop-down to keep it from overexposing, thereby losing creative control of depth of field. That's where hss comes in, again. Since you're using Manual and not PTTL flash mode you'll also have to work out the distance from flash to subject, most likely through trial and error-no easy thing in a dynamic shooting environment-which is another reason why xTTL is soo much better.

QuoteOriginally posted by derekkite Quote
It is really hard to get nice results using a flash while shooting wildlife at the best of times.
I mostly agree, but really hard? At the best of times? Not if you have the proper equipment and know how to use it. If you really take the time to study technique, use the available technology, and spend enough time in the field, you can get quite a few keepers. If you're still trying to use Manual flash and shunning HSS, then yes, absolutely.

QuoteOriginally posted by derekkite Quote
A bit of light to fill shadows and get your shutter speed up in dark corners,
Right, we're not talking about flash as key. The more subtle, the better but again, much easier with PTTL.

QuoteOriginally posted by derekkite Quote
add some contrast to improve details,
Actually, I use fill to reduce contrast and in so-doing, improve shadow detail.

QuoteOriginally posted by derekkite Quote
all the while not ruining the eyes or making a smeared mess of the background,
Definitely. That's what a flash bracket is for, eliminating red and blue-eye in people and animals, respectively. I'm not sure what you mean by making the background a smeared mess, though. Is it a reference to key flash for subject and slow shutter for ambient light, again?

QuoteOriginally posted by derekkite Quote
No automatic setting will make it all work, no matter who makes it. There are probably half a dozen scenarios to set up for. Having two of them not possible due to latency is frustrating.
Spot on. But most automatic settings will make it a lot easier to get great shots while also opening up creative opportunities that otherwise wouldn't be feasible or even exist.

Your last point got me thinking that it would be helpful to people trying to decide if the K3 or K3II is right for them to know exactly and objectively what they will not be able to accomplish with it (due to the shutter lag, at least). I'm withholding final judgement for if and when I personally hear that the lag was intended from Ricoh themselves. I might then be forced to sell my K3 the marketplace here so I certainly wouldn't stand to gain anything from such disclosure, but I think it's only fair that people know what they're getting into.

11-20-2015, 02:25 AM   #260
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HSS stops action, but not optimally

QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
HSS is of no value if you are wanting to stop motion with flash. The duration is always longer (> 6ms) than the X-sync dwell.
It is not quite as simple as that.

In general, I agree that HSS is not optimal for stopping motion, which is why I disagreed with the PrioLite system -- the first strobe system to offer HSS (or rather HyperSync) for Pentax -- being advertised as being ideal for capturing action. The real value of HSS, AFAIC, is to being able to shoot in daylight without the need for neutral density filters. Increasing shutter speed beyond the sync-speed also helps with capturing action, but is not optimal for the following reason:

Any regular capture with continuous (or HSS-type bursts, approximating continuous) light implies a "rolling shutter" effect, i.e., the bottom parts of the image will be captured earlier than the top part. The respective delay in capturing time is always the sync-speed (i.e., for Pentax 1/180s), independently of whether the shutter speed is higher or not. When the shutter speed is lower than the sync-speed the exposure becomes a mix of delayed and simultaneous exposure, with the latter dominating as the shutter time increases,

As a result, HSS photography helps stopping motion because the shutter speeds really increase, i.e., subject motion has less time to create a smeared exposure, but the issue of a "rolling shutter" effect with the resulting subject distortions (think "bent helicopter blades") remains.

That's why using short flash durations to stop motion are better suited to optimally capture action. Flash durations can be really short (e.g., 1/5500s at 1/16 power or even 1/33000s at 1/256 power for a Metz 58 AF-2) and achieve a "global shutter" effect as all parts of the image are captured at the same time.

So if I wanted to optimally stop action, I'd use manual flash, even though that may mean to use multiple flashes at the same time because flash durations increase with power levels (e.g., already 1/650s at 1/2 power for a Metz 58 AF-2).

QuoteOriginally posted by afmeck Quote
Let's not forget that if you're forced to use a longer shutter speed in ambient light, even at max x-sync speed of 1/180, then you'll need to stop-down to keep it from overexposing, thereby losing creative control of depth of field. That's where hss comes in, again.
You can use neutral density filters to avoid stopping down.

BTW, normally long shutter speeds are not the challenge. The typical application for HSS is shooting with bright ambient light and not wanting to stop down the aperture for creative reasons. As the sync-speed (here 1/180s) cannot be exceeded, the only options other than stopping down are neutral density filters (which make focusing and composition more challenging) or using flash beyond the sync-speed (-> HSS or HyperSync).

HSS can be great, but
  1. flash output will be reduced compared to manual, because the speedlight has to create a long burst rather than just a short pulse.
  2. the more you increase the shutter speed, the more flash power you need to maintain flash exposure. Unlike regular flash photography, HSS implies that the sensor sees less of the flash, the higher you go with the shutter speed.
  3. action will only be stopped as in normal ambient light photography and a "rolling shutter" effect will remain.
  4. Pentax HSS is tied to P-TTL and will thus imply some shutter lag.
11-20-2015, 09:44 AM   #261
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QuoteOriginally posted by afmeck Quote
I must admit, I'm not an expert strobist since my needs are, so far, fairly simple so could you elaborate on this technique and what it works around?
You might want to check out the link I posted in a previous comment to Ralph Paonessa's "making of" page. He describes the multiple low-power flash setup in detail. He also included several "near miss" shots showing that even with traditional sync, the decisive moment may still be hard to catch...high eye/finger latency I guess.

Previous comment with link...

Paonessa's use case is somewhat different in that he uses flash as key, but he does a good job of describing how it works.


Steve
11-20-2015, 11:22 AM   #262
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I've done something similar, 5 flash units, three bodies focused and aperture set to create an illuminated focused box a bit bigger than a metre cube. 1/16 power is about 1/6000, f8 to f11. it freezes bats in flight. You run into trigger latencies at those speeds. Works fine.

But it also takes 20 minutes to set up.
11-20-2015, 09:25 PM   #263
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
You might want to check out the link I posted in a previous comment to Ralph Paonessa's "making of" page. He describes the multiple low-power flash setup in detail. He also included several "near miss" shots showing that even with traditional sync, the decisive moment may still be hard to catch...high eye/finger latency I guess.

Previous comment with link...

Paonessa's use case is somewhat different in that he uses flash as key, but he does a good job of describing how it works.


Steve
Yes, I read the article the first time you posted it and I'm inspired by Ralph's patience, persistence and ingenuity and the final result: a stunningly beautiful bird (that I, for one, wasn't aware of before) captured in an expertly crafted image that could potentially aid in it's conservation, if there was ever a need. Conservation is the main goal for me with photography, but it requires me to first master my particular niche-mainly wildlife-in which the primary use of flash is for fill, not for key in a studio-like setup such as the one you allude to here, again. That case is very different than the vast majority of situations in which people are using flash for wildlife subjects.

Contrary to what has been said, the flash doesn't need to be very close to the subject when using HSS for fill light. A Better Beamer or homemade equivalent will give you 2 stops or more extra power and plenty of distance while increasing saturation, shadow detail, and adding a little catch-light in the eyes.

In the realm of flash photography, this is pretty basic stuff. Continually debating the efficacy of HSS with a key flash for capturing motion seems pointless and off-topic.

11-21-2015, 01:09 AM   #264
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
In general, I agree that HSS is not optimal for stopping motion, which is why I disagreed with the PrioLite system -- the first strobe system to offer HSS (or rather HyperSync) for Pentax -- being advertised as being ideal for capturing action. The real value of HSS, AFAIC, is to being able to shoot in daylight without the need for neutral density filters. Increasing shutter speed beyond the sync-speed also helps with capturing action, but is not optimal for the following reason:

Any regular capture with continuous (or HSS-type bursts, approximating continuous) light implies a "rolling shutter" effect, i.e., the bottom parts of the image will be captured earlier than the top part. The respective delay in capturing time is always the sync-speed (i.e., for Pentax 1/180s), independently of whether the shutter speed is higher or not. When the shutter speed is lower than the sync-speed the exposure becomes a mix of delayed and simultaneous exposure, with the latter dominating as the shutter time increases,

As a result, HSS photography helps stopping motion because the shutter speeds really increase, i.e., subject motion has less time to create a smeared exposure, but the issue of a "rolling shutter" effect with the resulting subject distortions (think "bent helicopter blades") remains.

That's why using short flash durations to stop motion are better suited to optimally capture action. Flash durations can be really short (e.g., 1/5500s at 1/16 power or even 1/33000s at 1/256 power for a Metz 58 AF-2) and achieve a "global shutter" effect as all parts of the image are captured at the same time.

So if I wanted to optimally stop action, I'd use manual flash, even though that may mean to use multiple flashes at the same time because flash durations increase with power levels (e.g., already 1/650s at 1/2 power for a Metz 58 AF-2).
Thank you, Class A, for bringing to our attention a possible workaround for the K3 shutter lag in PTTL mode! As far as I can tell, since the PrioLite HS (HotSync) system doesn't offer xTTL I'm assuming it would, by default, offer K3 and K3II users Manual flash with shutter speeds up to the specified 1/8000 (without the lag, of course).

Priolite: Sync Speeds Up To 1/8000s With Pentax - Third-Party Announcements | PentaxForums.com

PrioLite also offers two more advantages for wildlife or location shooters: a self contained strobe with internal removable Li-ion battery and wireless radio control. Only problem, for me is, at $2000 and 14 pounds for the starter kit it's outside both my budget and strength range. I don't think it would balance well on my flash bracket. (Yeah, I know it's not intended for that, haha). It is an exciting prospect, though, and great to hear that the list of professional tools available to Pentax shooters is expanding.

QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
HSS can be great, but
  1. flash output will be reduced compared to manual, because the speedlight has to create a long burst rather than just a short pulse.
  2. the more you increase the shutter speed, the more flash power you need to maintain flash exposure. Unlike regular flash photography, HSS implies that the sensor sees less of the flash, the higher you go with the shutter speed.
  3. action will only be stopped as in normal ambient light photography and a "rolling shutter" effect will remain.
  4. Pentax HSS is tied to P-TTL and will thus imply some shutter lag.
1. Yes, output is reduced, but it's still often-times more than enough output for fill. Most of the time I'm shooting at -1 or less flash compensation to keep the fill subtle.

2. Right. Again HSS is not optimal for flash as key light for freezing moving subjects. I don't think that's the intended use of the PrioLite system, is it? It seems to be targeted at freezing subjects with ambient light (fast shutter speeds, large apertures) and filling with strobe light at a power that can't be accomplished with HSS and the reduced power it produces. Doesn't that address the issue you mentioned in 1.?

3. I'm not convinced that rolling shutter would be a problem but it would be interesting to see what real-world results can tell us, perhaps in a thread dedicated to that topic (if it doesn't already exist)?

4. That gets us back on topic. Unfortunately, in the case of the K3 and k3II only, that's the game killer.

Again, although general consensus and even official Ricoh Japan statements concur that the lag is systemic and was intentional, I'm still waiting to hear it for myself from Ricoh Canada (same as Ricoh Americas, btw?) and encouraging others, who are at least annoyed by it, to do the same.

Last edited by afmeck; 11-21-2015 at 01:14 AM. Reason: emphasis
11-21-2015, 02:53 AM   #265
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Just in case anyone might still question the usefulness of HSS and fill flash or is reading this thread and wondering why they should care, you might want to have a look at this short article. Warning to all 'Pentaxians': it's written by a Nikonian and refers to HSS in Nikonian parlance. The application is the same, however, with one notable exception; the ability for Nikon shooters to combine HSS with Manual flash settings, as was pointed out by another recent poster (I'm forgetting who). But, of course it could also be accomplished with PTTL, just not with a K3 or K3II (taking Ricoh Japan's statement at face value).

Using Auto FP High Speed Sync to Illuminate Fast Action from Nikon

It's also interesting to note that this technique is being applied to sports photography by a pro who states, "Today’s sports photographer not only needs to capture the action, but oftentimes produce a unique feature image for a client...High-Speed Sync is a flash mode used for fill-flash photography under brightly lit conditions...it is often used for action-stopping sports photography."

So yes, flash can and often is used by sports photographers without them getting punched in the face, as was suggested by another poster on this thread who's name I won't mention. Of course flash is not always appropriate but certainly should be an option.

Last edited by afmeck; 11-21-2015 at 02:56 AM. Reason: sarcasm
11-21-2015, 06:05 AM - 1 Like   #266
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QuoteOriginally posted by afmeck Quote
...
It's also interesting to note that this technique is being applied to sports photography by a pro who states, "Today’s sports photographer not only needs to capture the action, but oftentimes produce a unique feature image for a client...High-Speed Sync is a flash mode used for fill-flash photography under brightly lit conditions...it is often used for action-stopping sports photography."

So yes, flash can and often is used by sports photographers without them getting punched in the face, as was suggested by another poster on this thread who's name I won't mention. Of course flash is not always appropriate but certainly should be an option.
I don't mean to nitpick, but those ultra-stylishly lit photos by Dave Black all seem to be staged and not taken during a competition, which is when the face-punching issue was proposed. This in no way takes away from the usefulness of HSS for action where appropriate, nor the awesomeness of the images, nor your frustration at having a feature that is gimped to the point of not being useful for what you're after.

Thanks for the link, I spent some time browsing his website and there are some of the most phenomenal sports images out there (there's an overhead volleyball one that's just astonishing):

Sports Portfolio | Dave BlackDave Black

He also has tons of youtube videos that look worth watching.
11-21-2015, 06:38 AM   #267
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Perfect Solution for you

Hey Afmeck,


I have the perfect solution for your HSS problems. Why don't you just throw your "piece of crap" Pentax system in the trash and go buy yourself a wonderful Nikon system at about three or four times the price and be done with it. Then you would have what you want, no sense beating a dead horse to death with all of this. All systems have certain limitations and P-TTL is not a Pentax strong suite. I for one am perfectly happy with my K-3 as I think many others are and have learned that all systems have limitations.


Just my thoughts on it.


Have a nice day
11-24-2015, 04:12 AM   #268
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QuoteOriginally posted by afmeck Quote
As far as I can tell, since the PrioLite HS (HotSync) system doesn't offer xTTL I'm assuming it would, by default, offer K3 and K3II users Manual flash with shutter speeds up to the specified 1/8000 (without the lag, of course).
Shutter speeds exceeding the sync speed with Pentax always imply a P-TTL delay, unless you are using the Cactus V6 based remote trigger approach.

QuoteOriginally posted by afmeck Quote
Again HSS is not optimal for flash as key light for freezing moving subjects. I don't think that's the intended use of the PrioLite system, is it?
I think PrioLite would object to their system being characterised as being suitable for fill light only.
PrioLite's CEO can be seen in a video demonstrating the motion stopping power of the PrioLite strobe.

QuoteOriginally posted by afmeck Quote
Unfortunately, in the case of the K3 and k3II only, that's the game killer.
Why do you say "K3 and k3II only"?

P-TTL always introduces a delay, it is just quite a bit larger in the case of the K-3 (II).
If the regular P-TTL delay is not significant to you, that's fine for me. I wouldn't like any kind of avoidable delay when trying to capture the right moment.
02-11-2016, 12:42 PM   #269
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Looking at buying a used K-3 that had flash repair

Hi All,

Just researching the K-3 for purchase and am looking at a used one that the owner had sent to the Pentax repair facility and ended up having it's flash circuity (maybe board) replaced.

I'm wondering if this type of repair is related to the many posts regarding delayed flash?

Take care,
Newfie
02-11-2016, 01:02 PM   #270
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QuoteOriginally posted by Newfie Quote
Hi All,

Just researching the K-3 for purchase and am looking at a used one that the owner had sent to the Pentax repair facility and ended up having it's flash circuity (maybe board) replaced.

I'm wondering if this type of repair is related to the many posts regarding delayed flash?

Take care,
Newfie
As in, getting the repair caused the delay? Or, getting it repaired fixed the delay? My launch silver k-3 has never been in for repairs and has the delay.
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