K-3 delay when using the flash

Newfie · 02-11-2016, 01:36 PM

He just mentioned that a hardware fix was performed on the flash system. I'll ask him about the delay, or if he had one.
Take care

Newfie · 02-12-2016, 09:20 AM

I heard from the seller. The flash just wasn't working, or working intermittently, he just sent in back for repair to the flash circuit.

He's got just over 40,000 actuation on the shutter, says he does a lot of time lapse photography. I don't know if this contributed to the hardware failure? I wonder if this is too high a shutter count to consider buying used out of warranty?
Any thoughts?
Take care

enoeske · 02-12-2016, 09:25 AM

Originally posted by Newfie

Any thoughts?

Doesn't seem like an appropriate topic for this thread since it doesn't have anything to do with the flash delay.

Newfie · 02-12-2016, 09:49 AM

Originally posted by enoeske

Doesn't seem like an appropriate topic for this thread since it doesn't have anything to do with the flash delay.

No worries.

Thanks for the reminder to keep me on track there fella! I'll search out a suitable forum.

Take care

souless · 02-19-2016, 09:44 PM

I wonder if K-3ii exhibits this kind of flash delay?

Rayn · 03-11-2016, 06:40 AM

Originally posted by souless

I wonder if K-3ii exhibits this kind of flash delay?

Yes it does. Same delay happens when using the Metz 48 AF-1. However, Pentax service claims the LAG DOES NOT HAPPEN with Pentax brand name flash guns. So apparently it's a 3rd party compatibility issue.. or so they say.

enoeske · 03-11-2016, 07:42 AM

Originally posted by Rayn

Yes it does. Same delay happens when using the Metz 48 AF-1. However, Pentax service claims the LAG DOES NOT HAPPEN with Pentax brand name flash guns. So apparently it's a 3rd party compatibility issue.. or so they say.

It happens with the AF-540FGZii so if thats their claim, it is incorrect.

Rayn · 03-11-2016, 11:56 AM

Originally posted by enoeske

It happens with the AF-540FGZii so if thats their claim, it is incorrect.

Yes, told me they tested my K-3II with the Metz 48 AF-1 and the Pentax flash, and claim there is no lag with the Pentax flash unit, only with the Metz.
Can't say I'm surprised they lied, though. Pentax tech support is among the worst I've ever had the misfortune of dealing with...

EDIT: Is there anyone who did the test correctly and DOES NOT have this issue?

TheOneAndOnlyJH · 03-11-2016, 02:24 PM

Originally posted by Rayn

Yes, told me they tested my K-3II with the Metz 48 AF-1 and the Pentax flash, and claim there is no lag with the Pentax flash unit, only with the Metz.
Can't say I'm surprised they lied, though. Pentax tech support is among the worst I've ever had the misfortune of dealing with...

EDIT: Is there anyone who did the test correctly and DOES NOT have this issue?

I wonder... are you sure they were both set for P-TTL flash?
If my memory serves me well, the AF-540 has an AUTO thyristor mode which may not have the delay we complain about with P-TTL. It would be nice if some non-partisan party here could actually test them side by side and rule out any differences.

ScooterMaxi Jim · 03-11-2016, 02:36 PM

The pTTL function is the source of the delay. It is related to the calculation of preflash followed by releasing the correct amount of exposure flash when the shutter activates (assuming first curtain is set).

In Auto (or manual, or ratio), no preflash nor calculation by the camera is involved. The camera sends a standard pulse to the main hotshoe as the shutter is opened, and any further restriction of light is an independent action done by the flash after the shutter triggers.

souless · 03-11-2016, 07:48 PM

Thanks Rayn and enoeske to confirm this issue on K-3ii

Based on the info from ScooterMaxi Jim and TheOneAndOnlyJH, we have to make sure ask the repair department to set the flash to P-TTL in order to re-produce the delay

Much appreciated!

Rayn · 03-12-2016, 05:33 AM

Originally posted by TheOneAndOnlyJH

I wonder... are you sure they were both set for P-TTL flash?

Originally posted by souless

Based on the info from ScooterMaxi Jim and TheOneAndOnlyJH, we have to make sure ask the repair department to set the flash to P-TTL in order to re-produce the delay

How else were they supposed to reproduce the issue? The fact that it only happens in P-TTL is the whole point. So yeah.. of course I told them. And Pentax Service Croatia, in their infinite wisdom, says the issue is with 3rd party flash guns. Which is apparently not true. So they lied about testing it. Knowing how they work over there, I'm not surprised.

What we should be focusing on are the people who claim to have no lag. If that's true, that may be the only way to pinpoint the issue.
If not, than Pentax just broke the Flash system...again. And unless they come up with a FW update, we're stuck with a flash delay.

Class A · 03-12-2016, 06:56 PM

Originally posted by Rayn

What we should be focusing on are the people who claim to have no lag. If that's true, that may be the only way to pinpoint the issue.
If not, than Pentax just broke the Flash system...again.

Ricoh Japan already confirmed that the K-3 uses a deliberate P-TTL delay.

No need for further detective work.

If you use manual flash level control, you not only get rid of the K-3 delay but also of the whole P-TTL pre-flash related delay.

ScooterMaxi Jim · 03-12-2016, 07:57 PM

Originally posted by Class A

Ricoh Japan already confirmed that the K-3 uses a deliberate P-TTL delay.

No need for further detective work.

If you use manual flash level control, you not only get rid of the K-3 delay but also of the whole P-TTL pre-flash related delay.

It could be worse (well, relatively). They could have used the K-5 protocol which is essentially useless for quality photography if you want 95% certainty of a good exposure - i.e. bounce or any kind of softening that requires something other than crappy direct flash. Essentially, you have to pick your poison - shutter release speed or accuracy. Although, I must say that the K-01/K-30/50 was a pretty good compromise - and involved very little delay. Pentax engineering really doesn't have a clue on this.

Bottom line -- perhaps using the non-pTTL strobist methods from decades ago might be the safest bet. Yes, you can even do multi-flash that way! Be brave...

souless · 05-09-2016, 09:21 AM

sorry to dig this grave!
A little favor to ask for the people who got K-1
Could you please kindly confirm the P-TTL delay gotten fixed or at least shorten or still the same?
Much appreciated!!

02-11-2016, 01:36 PM	#271
Newfie Forum Member Join Date: Feb 2016 Posts: 65	I'll find out He just mentioned that a hardware fix was performed on the flash system. I'll ask him about the delay, or if he had one. Take care

02-12-2016, 09:20 AM	#272
Newfie Forum Member Join Date: Feb 2016 Posts: 65	Flash just wasn't working I heard from the seller. The flash just wasn't working, or working intermittently, he just sent in back for repair to the flash circuit. He's got just over 40,000 actuation on the shutter, says he does a lot of time lapse photography. I don't know if this contributed to the hardware failure? I wonder if this is too high a shutter count to consider buying used out of warranty? Any thoughts? Take care

03-11-2016, 11:56 AM	#278
Rayn Forum Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Location: Zagreb Posts: 73	Originally posted by enoeske It happens with the AF-540FGZii so if thats their claim, it is incorrect. Yes, told me they tested my K-3II with the Metz 48 AF-1 and the Pentax flash, and claim there is no lag with the Pentax flash unit, only with the Metz. Can't say I'm surprised they lied, though. Pentax tech support is among the worst I've ever had the misfortune of dealing with... EDIT: Is there anyone who did the test correctly and DOES NOT have this issue? Last edited by Rayn; 03-11-2016 at 12:22 PM.

03-12-2016, 05:33 AM	#282
Rayn Forum Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Location: Zagreb Posts: 73	Originally posted by TheOneAndOnlyJH I wonder... are you sure they were both set for P-TTL flash? Originally posted by souless Based on the info from ScooterMaxi Jim and TheOneAndOnlyJH, we have to make sure ask the repair department to set the flash to P-TTL in order to re-produce the delay How else were they supposed to reproduce the issue? The fact that it only happens in P-TTL is the whole point. So yeah.. of course I told them. And Pentax Service Croatia, in their infinite wisdom, says the issue is with 3rd party flash guns. Which is apparently not true. So they lied about testing it. Knowing how they work over there, I'm not surprised. What we should be focusing on are the people who claim to have no lag. If that's true, that may be the only way to pinpoint the issue. If not, than Pentax just broke the Flash system...again. And unless they come up with a FW update, we're stuck with a flash delay. Last edited by Rayn; 03-12-2016 at 05:38 AM.

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02-12-2016, 09:25 AM	#273
enoeske Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Surprise, Az Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,136	Originally posted by Newfie Any thoughts? Doesn't seem like an appropriate topic for this thread since it doesn't have anything to do with the flash delay.

02-12-2016, 09:49 AM	#274
Newfie Forum Member Join Date: Feb 2016 Posts: 65	Originally posted by enoeske Doesn't seem like an appropriate topic for this thread since it doesn't have anything to do with the flash delay. No worries. Thanks for the reminder to keep me on track there fella! I'll search out a suitable forum. Take care

02-19-2016, 09:44 PM	#275
souless Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Taipei Posts: 110	I wonder if K-3ii exhibits this kind of flash delay?

03-11-2016, 06:40 AM	#276
Rayn Forum Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Location: Zagreb Posts: 73	Originally posted by souless I wonder if K-3ii exhibits this kind of flash delay? Yes it does. Same delay happens when using the Metz 48 AF-1. However, Pentax service claims the LAG DOES NOT HAPPEN with Pentax brand name flash guns. So apparently it's a 3rd party compatibility issue.. or so they say.

03-11-2016, 07:42 AM	#277
enoeske Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Surprise, Az Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,136	Originally posted by Rayn Yes it does. Same delay happens when using the Metz 48 AF-1. However, Pentax service claims the LAG DOES NOT HAPPEN with Pentax brand name flash guns. So apparently it's a 3rd party compatibility issue.. or so they say. It happens with the AF-540FGZii so if thats their claim, it is incorrect.

03-11-2016, 02:24 PM	#279
TheOneAndOnlyJH Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Buffalo, NY Posts: 351	Originally posted by Rayn Yes, told me they tested my K-3II with the Metz 48 AF-1 and the Pentax flash, and claim there is no lag with the Pentax flash unit, only with the Metz. Can't say I'm surprised they lied, though. Pentax tech support is among the worst I've ever had the misfortune of dealing with... EDIT: Is there anyone who did the test correctly and DOES NOT have this issue? I wonder... are you sure they were both set for P-TTL flash? If my memory serves me well, the AF-540 has an AUTO thyristor mode which may not have the delay we complain about with P-TTL. It would be nice if some non-partisan party here could actually test them side by side and rule out any differences.

03-11-2016, 02:36 PM	#280
ScooterMaxi Jim Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Minnesota Posts: 1,520	The pTTL function is the source of the delay. It is related to the calculation of preflash followed by releasing the correct amount of exposure flash when the shutter activates (assuming first curtain is set). In Auto (or manual, or ratio), no preflash nor calculation by the camera is involved. The camera sends a standard pulse to the main hotshoe as the shutter is opened, and any further restriction of light is an independent action done by the flash after the shutter triggers.

03-11-2016, 07:48 PM	#281
souless Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Taipei Posts: 110	Thanks Rayn and enoeske to confirm this issue on K-3ii Based on the info from ScooterMaxi Jim and TheOneAndOnlyJH, we have to make sure ask the repair department to set the flash to P-TTL in order to re-produce the delay Much appreciated!

03-12-2016, 06:56 PM	#283
Class A Pentaxian Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Wellington, New Zealand Posts: 11,251	Originally posted by Rayn What we should be focusing on are the people who claim to have no lag. If that's true, that may be the only way to pinpoint the issue. If not, than Pentax just broke the Flash system...again. Ricoh Japan already confirmed that the K-3 uses a deliberate P-TTL delay. No need for further detective work. If you use manual flash level control, you not only get rid of the K-3 delay but also of the whole P-TTL pre-flash related delay.

03-12-2016, 07:57 PM	#284
ScooterMaxi Jim Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Minnesota Posts: 1,520	Originally posted by Class A Ricoh Japan already confirmed that the K-3 uses a deliberate P-TTL delay. No need for further detective work. If you use manual flash level control, you not only get rid of the K-3 delay but also of the whole P-TTL pre-flash related delay. It could be worse (well, relatively). They could have used the K-5 protocol which is essentially useless for quality photography if you want 95% certainty of a good exposure - i.e. bounce or any kind of softening that requires something other than crappy direct flash. Essentially, you have to pick your poison - shutter release speed or accuracy. Although, I must say that the K-01/K-30/50 was a pretty good compromise - and involved very little delay. Pentax engineering really doesn't have a clue on this. Bottom line -- perhaps using the non-pTTL strobist methods from decades ago might be the safest bet. Yes, you can even do multi-flash that way! Be brave...

05-09-2016, 09:21 AM	#285
souless Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Taipei Posts: 110	sorry to dig this grave! A little favor to ask for the people who got K-1 Could you please kindly confirm the P-TTL delay gotten fixed or at least shorten or still the same? Much appreciated!!