K-3 delay when using the flash

konraDarnok · 11-15-2013, 04:48 AM

There was no lag with the flash on my K-3, but the flash didn't show in the photos. This thread, with at least 2 other people reporting similar problems:

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/172-pentax-k-3/241800-k-3-flash-issue.html

I don't know if our problems are related, but it's clear something is prone to failure in the flash system. I opted for an exchange which should arrive today. Flash is the first thing getting checked as it appears to be the only multiple reported problem.

Black_Wizards · 11-15-2013, 04:52 AM

Originally posted by Vylen

I experimented with the on-board flash (too lazy to stand up and mount the off-board

)...

There's a slight delay on pressing on any flash mode, except for Manual - the flash discharges immediately. So this seems to be a P-TTL issue for both on-board flash and flashguns..

Interesting.

I just test with Manual flash and it decharge immediatly! You're correct, it's P-TTL that bug...

rawr · 11-15-2013, 05:06 AM

So what is the basic camera logic here when shooting flash (based on on-board flash)?

Camera has to:

- check which flash mode to use (manual, auto flash discharge, red-eye on, slow-speed sync, trailing curtain, wireless etc)
- establish power status (enough charge/ not enough to shoot - also depends on menu setting for Release While Charging)
- find out what shooting mode is selected (manual, X, Av etc)
- what shutter speed is selected (eg higher for HSS or standard 1/180 for P, Av or X mode)
- acquire focus (depends on focus mode - AFC, AFS, AFA, or manual, and perhaps llight level)
- meter scene (normal exposure metering system first, then pre-flash if necessary) to establish shutter/ISO/aperture, read and then set a WB, assess scene type (backlit, lots of ambient light etc), and provide some of that information to assist the AF if necessary
- fire flash.

I probably missed a dozen steps here, but I wonder if any of those steps may provide a clue to the behaviour of the K-3 here. Where is it spending perhaps too much time thinking about what to do?

Vylen · 11-15-2013, 05:19 AM

Originally posted by rawr

So what is the basic camera logic here when shooting flash (based on on-board flash)?

I tested some combinations of settings... but to remove anything that could be taking too long - Manual Exposure, Manual Focus, AE-L, Manual White Balance, SR off, charged flash... had no effect on the lag with auto flash...

Teal · 11-15-2013, 05:25 AM

So it's confirmed!! I was able to get an immediate discharge on Manual Flash (although the image was totally washed out - flash too intense).

I'm now keen to know if there is a K3 out there that discharges without the lag using the normal flash mode (and not exhibiting any lag or an out-of-sync discharge as reported by several).

derekkite · 11-15-2013, 08:38 AM

There is a slight lag, but it isn't out of sync. In the many shots I took with the on board flash and a Metz 50 AF either on the camera or as a slave, they were exposed properly. The only issue I ran into was using spot metering, pointed towards a black section of my white and black dog, caused a rather wild exposure, as did pointing at the white. Not a flash issue.

I don't think the lag is a problem with the body, it seems to be what it does.

Dr_who · 11-15-2013, 10:17 AM

Originally posted by Teal

So it's confirmed!! I was able to get an immediate discharge on Manual Flash (although the image was totally washed out - flash too intense).

I'm now keen to know if there is a K3 out there that discharges without the lag using the normal flash mode (and not exhibiting any lag or an out-of-sync discharge as reported by several).

Pretty sure one of only a couple who are having issues unfortunately. Mine seems to be firing the flast just fine. I find it works rather well compared to the K5 which I found to over exposure alot.

lister6520 · 11-15-2013, 10:32 AM

After seeing some comments here I need to point out that I was testing with an external P-TTL flash, the Metz 58-AF2.

It turns out that with the internal flash there is indeed a delay even though the 'Release while charging' is set to ON, and even the first shot is slightly delayed.

Its not so much of an issue for me because I rarely use the internal flash and if I do it would not normally be anything important. That said I don't see any good reason why this delay should exist. All the stuff the camera needs to do when using the internal flash is pretty much the same as when using the external so if there is no delay with the latter then neither should there be with the internal.

Black_Wizards · 11-15-2013, 10:41 AM

Originally posted by lister6520

After seeing some comments here I need to point out that I was testing with an external P-TTL flash, the Metz 58-AF2.

It turns out that with the internal flash there is indeed a delay even though the 'Release while charging' is set to ON, and even the first shot is slightly delayed.

Its not so much of an issue for me because I rarely use the internal flash and if I do it would not normally be anything important. That said I don't see any good reason why this delay should exist. All the stuff the camera needs to do when using the internal flash is pretty much the same as when using the external so if there is no delay with the latter then neither should there be with the internal.

Personnaly, I have the delay when using my external Pentax flash in P-TTL too...

goubejp · 11-15-2013, 11:03 AM

Originally posted by derekkite

Slight delay when using either the built in or mounted flash using p-ttl.

Same here, the external flash is the Pentax AF540 FGZ

bdery · 11-15-2013, 11:22 AM

Originally posted by gbeaton

My K20 was fine

Except that it underexposed with bounce flash, something the K-3 clearly does not do.

My K-3 has no delay when using the flash.

**jpzk** · 11-15-2013, 01:19 PM

K-3 delay when using the flash

Besides the flash lag, has anyone experienced bad results, i.e.: image quality/exposure, after/once the flash fires ?

JP

bdery · 11-15-2013, 01:44 PM

Originally posted by jpzk

Besides the flash lag, has anyone experienced bad results, i.e.: image quality/exposure, after/once the flash fires ?

No issue with mine, it's the best flash exposure I've seen, with the built-in flash or with the AF540.

bxf · 11-15-2013, 02:06 PM

If it is eventually established that some have the problem and some do not, I'll start thinking that it could be some setting or combination of settings that is causing the problem. Since I understand the manual to be rather sparse, perhaps the "feature" is not even documented.

Has anyone with the problem tried to reset everything to factory settings and see if problem still exists?

Teal · 11-15-2013, 02:18 PM

Originally posted by bxf

If it is eventually established that some have the problem and some do not, I'll start thinking that it could be some setting or combination of settings that is causing the problem. Since I understand the manual to be rather sparse, perhaps the "feature" is not even documented.

Has anyone with the problem tried to reset everything to factory settings and see if problem still exists?

Yes I've done a reset (there were Resets on the Record Menu and Custom Menu). The delay is still there.

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11-15-2013, 04:48 AM	#16
konraDarnok Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Photos: Albums Posts: 969	There was no lag with the flash on my K-3, but the flash didn't show in the photos. This thread, with at least 2 other people reporting similar problems: https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/172-pentax-k-3/241800-k-3-flash-issue.html I don't know if our problems are related, but it's clear something is prone to failure in the flash system. I opted for an exchange which should arrive today. Flash is the first thing getting checked as it appears to be the only multiple reported problem.

11-15-2013, 04:52 AM	#17
Black_Wizards Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2013 Posts: 118 Original Poster	Originally posted by Vylen I experimented with the on-board flash (too lazy to stand up and mount the off-board )... There's a slight delay on pressing on any flash mode, except for Manual - the flash discharges immediately. So this seems to be a P-TTL issue for both on-board flash and flashguns.. Interesting. I just test with Manual flash and it decharge immediatly! You're correct, it's P-TTL that bug...

11-15-2013, 05:06 AM	#18
rawr Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 11,913	So what is the basic camera logic here when shooting flash (based on on-board flash)? Camera has to: - check which flash mode to use (manual, auto flash discharge, red-eye on, slow-speed sync, trailing curtain, wireless etc) - establish power status (enough charge/ not enough to shoot - also depends on menu setting for Release While Charging) - find out what shooting mode is selected (manual, X, Av etc) - what shutter speed is selected (eg higher for HSS or standard 1/180 for P, Av or X mode) - acquire focus (depends on focus mode - AFC, AFS, AFA, or manual, and perhaps llight level) - meter scene (normal exposure metering system first, then pre-flash if necessary) to establish shutter/ISO/aperture, read and then set a WB, assess scene type (backlit, lots of ambient light etc), and provide some of that information to assist the AF if necessary - fire flash. I probably missed a dozen steps here, but I wonder if any of those steps may provide a clue to the behaviour of the K-3 here. Where is it spending perhaps too much time thinking about what to do?

11-15-2013, 05:19 AM	#19
Vylen Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Sydney, Australia Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,262	Originally posted by rawr So what is the basic camera logic here when shooting flash (based on on-board flash)? I tested some combinations of settings... but to remove anything that could be taking too long - Manual Exposure, Manual Focus, AE-L, Manual White Balance, SR off, charged flash... had no effect on the lag with auto flash...

11-15-2013, 05:25 AM	#20
Teal Forum Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Sydney Posts: 55	So it's confirmed!! I was able to get an immediate discharge on Manual Flash (although the image was totally washed out - flash too intense). I'm now keen to know if there is a K3 out there that discharges without the lag using the normal flash mode (and not exhibiting any lag or an out-of-sync discharge as reported by several).

11-15-2013, 08:38 AM	#21
derekkite Pentaxian Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Nelson B.C. Posts: 3,782	There is a slight lag, but it isn't out of sync. In the many shots I took with the on board flash and a Metz 50 AF either on the camera or as a slave, they were exposed properly. The only issue I ran into was using spot metering, pointed towards a black section of my white and black dog, caused a rather wild exposure, as did pointing at the white. Not a flash issue. I don't think the lag is a problem with the body, it seems to be what it does.

11-15-2013, 10:17 AM	#22
Dr_who Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 777	Originally posted by Teal So it's confirmed!! I was able to get an immediate discharge on Manual Flash (although the image was totally washed out - flash too intense). I'm now keen to know if there is a K3 out there that discharges without the lag using the normal flash mode (and not exhibiting any lag or an out-of-sync discharge as reported by several). Pretty sure one of only a couple who are having issues unfortunately. Mine seems to be firing the flast just fine. I find it works rather well compared to the K5 which I found to over exposure alot.

11-15-2013, 10:32 AM	#23
lister6520 Veteran Member Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 733	After seeing some comments here I need to point out that I was testing with an external P-TTL flash, the Metz 58-AF2. It turns out that with the internal flash there is indeed a delay even though the 'Release while charging' is set to ON, and even the first shot is slightly delayed. Its not so much of an issue for me because I rarely use the internal flash and if I do it would not normally be anything important. That said I don't see any good reason why this delay should exist. All the stuff the camera needs to do when using the internal flash is pretty much the same as when using the external so if there is no delay with the latter then neither should there be with the internal.

11-15-2013, 10:41 AM	#24
Black_Wizards Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2013 Posts: 118 Original Poster	Originally posted by lister6520 After seeing some comments here I need to point out that I was testing with an external P-TTL flash, the Metz 58-AF2. It turns out that with the internal flash there is indeed a delay even though the 'Release while charging' is set to ON, and even the first shot is slightly delayed. Its not so much of an issue for me because I rarely use the internal flash and if I do it would not normally be anything important. That said I don't see any good reason why this delay should exist. All the stuff the camera needs to do when using the internal flash is pretty much the same as when using the external so if there is no delay with the latter then neither should there be with the internal. Personnaly, I have the delay when using my external Pentax flash in P-TTL too...

11-15-2013, 11:03 AM	#25
goubejp Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: France Photos: Albums Posts: 804	Originally posted by derekkite Slight delay when using either the built in or mounted flash using p-ttl. Same here, the external flash is the Pentax AF540 FGZ

11-15-2013, 11:22 AM	#26
bdery Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Quebec city, Canada Photos: Gallery Posts: 9,357	Originally posted by gbeaton My K20 was fine Except that it underexposed with bounce flash, something the K-3 clearly does not do. My K-3 has no delay when using the flash.

11-15-2013, 01:19 PM	#27
jpzk Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Québec Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,251	K-3 delay when using the flash Besides the flash lag, has anyone experienced bad results, i.e.: image quality/exposure, after/once the flash fires ? JP

11-15-2013, 01:44 PM	#28
bdery Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Quebec city, Canada Photos: Gallery Posts: 9,357	Originally posted by jpzk Besides the flash lag, has anyone experienced bad results, i.e.: image quality/exposure, after/once the flash fires ? No issue with mine, it's the best flash exposure I've seen, with the built-in flash or with the AF540.

11-15-2013, 02:06 PM	#29
bxf Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Lisbon area Posts: 1,660	If it is eventually established that some have the problem and some do not, I'll start thinking that it could be some setting or combination of settings that is causing the problem. Since I understand the manual to be rather sparse, perhaps the "feature" is not even documented. Has anyone with the problem tried to reset everything to factory settings and see if problem still exists?

11-15-2013, 02:18 PM	#30
Teal Forum Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Sydney Posts: 55	Originally posted by bxf If it is eventually established that some have the problem and some do not, I'll start thinking that it could be some setting or combination of settings that is causing the problem. Since I understand the manual to be rather sparse, perhaps the "feature" is not even documented. Has anyone with the problem tried to reset everything to factory settings and see if problem still exists? Yes I've done a reset (there were Resets on the Record Menu and Custom Menu). The delay is still there.