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12-04-2013, 01:39 PM   #61
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QuoteOriginally posted by awaldram Quote
gives competitive advantage to every other manufacturer
It's a bit bold to paint this as a Ricoh and K-3 specific problem. You are assuming that the same TTL calculation delay isn't present in cameras from other manufacturers ... Maybe it is, maybe it isn't.

And saying 'being unable to use flash for moving subjects' with the K-3 is unnecessarily over-dramatizing the issue. Especially since you say shortly afterwards that you have indeed been able to use flash for action shots with your K-3.

12-04-2013, 03:23 PM   #62
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
It's a bit bold to paint this as a Ricoh and K-3 specific problem. You are assuming that the same TTL calculation delay isn't present in cameras from other manufacturers ... Maybe it is, maybe it isn't.

And saying 'being unable to use flash for moving subjects' with the K-3 is unnecessarily over-dramatizing the issue. Especially since you say shortly afterwards that you have indeed been able to use flash for action shots with your K-3.
Personally I find it quite annoying having this delay. It maybe acceptable for others based on what they shoot or their tolerances, but I recently tried to take shots of my dogs jumping and wasn't able to get the shots I wanted. Yes a split second makes a big difference.

This is the only gripe I have of this camera.

I'm really keen to see what comments K3 users (who deny the lag exists) will say if ever Ricoh admits to this or if it's magically fixed in a firmware.
12-04-2013, 03:29 PM   #63
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
There seems nothing to fix, really.

I've shot multiple photos now with external and in-built flash, and I never even thought to check for any delay, even though I knew about this thread. It's not something you notice.

And yes, flash exposure has been great - indoors, outdoors, bounce etc.

If there is something to fix, by all means Pentax should fix it, but I'm not sure if anything is indeed broken here.
Try to shoot using your onboard flash on Auto Flash mode. Then do shots on Manual Flash mode. Can you tell the difference?

If not, then either:
1. Your Manual Flash mode also exhibits a delay, or
2. Your unit is probably the only one in existence to not have this delay because from all units I've tested all around Sydney they all have it.
12-04-2013, 04:34 PM   #64
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QuoteOriginally posted by Teal Quote
Try to shoot using your onboard flash on Auto Flash mode. Then do shots on Manual Flash mode. Can you tell the difference?
If not, then either:
1. Your Manual Flash mode also exhibits a delay, or
2. Your unit is probably the only one in existence to not have this delay because from all units I've tested all around Sydney they all have it.
I've just done all that and I still can't see what you are talking about.
As soon as I hear the focus confirm beep, I press the shutter button and the in-built flash discharges. If there is a delay, I must need an atomic clock or something to detect it.

Edit: OK, I just did the same with the K-5 and the K-5 seems slightly more instantaneous. But it is a miniscule difference and it all happens within the scope of the button press. There would be more practical scope for delay in the focus confirm and flash recharge than any action of the PTTL when doing action shots.

And as I've said before, if Pentax can tune this up, well and good. But let's not make mountains out of molehills.


Last edited by rawr; 12-04-2013 at 04:46 PM.
12-04-2013, 04:56 PM   #65
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I'd like to see folks take a bit more care in terminology. Let's be clear that p-TTL, TTL, and Auto (as in autothyrister) are very different from one another. Given that autothyrister is so dependable (assuming basic operations - not multi-flash), it would be nice to know if Auto shows no lag - as does Manual; likely this is the case. No lag is pretty important for people photos (but p-TTL is great for statues).

I tend to agree with those who have a theory that p-TTL either has to have a serious lag (missed candids, lots of blinkies) which were common problems prior to the K5, or you get quick response and terrible exposure problems. I suspect this is the case because revamping pre-flash system design (E-TTL then E-TTLii) was the only solution for Canon (the newer version is far-less than perfect from my experience, but well ahead of Pentax). However, Pentax has never updated the p-TTL system from the original - a long time ago. At the same time, Pentax (Ricoh) has put out new, crippled flashes that don't allow for Auto or - apparently - real TTL supported by the older bodies.

Looks like we're heading in the wrong direction regarding supporting flash choices and flexibility in shooting. Not a problem for me; I can't afford to miss shots and will be sticking with Auto for critical shooting.

Last edited by ScooterMaxi Jim; 12-04-2013 at 10:16 PM. Reason: missing word
12-04-2013, 07:11 PM   #66
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QuoteOriginally posted by ScooterMaxi Jim Quote
nice to know if Auto shows no lag - as does Manual; likely this is the case. No lag is pretty important for people photos (but p-TTL is great for statues).
Auto-thyristor is pretty much like Manual mode, so there should be no reason to add a lag. I've used Nikon SB-28's on top of my K20D in this mode...the K20D thinks it's a manual flash.

What's weird w/ the reported pTTL delay is that the delay is *before* the pre-flash. I can understand a delay after the preflash, but it's weird to have the delay before it. Only thing I can think of is it's charging up the flash before firing, but that makes no sense so it's probably a bug...
12-04-2013, 10:10 PM   #67
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QuoteOriginally posted by kenyee Quote
Auto-thyristor is pretty much like Manual mode, so there should be no reason to add a lag. I've used Nikon SB-28's on top of my K20D in this mode...the K20D thinks it's a manual flash.

What's weird w/ the reported pTTL delay is that the delay is *before* the pre-flash. I can understand a delay after the preflash, but it's weird to have the delay before it. Only thing I can think of is it's charging up the flash before firing, but that makes no sense so it's probably a bug...
Nice camera and flash combo - I'm sure you got good results. I pretty much knew that was the answer regarding Auto lag (none) - but I am sure that bad engineers could decide to trigger bad results by taking the OEM flash contact setting shutter speed at flash sync and forcing the delay that is normally associated with the contact implementing the pre-flash. That's truly a dumb idea, but we see a lot of crazy over-engineering these days.

I do remember extensive blinkies with the K20d on-board flash, so you know that camera was not particularly quick in pTTL - as good as it was in so many other aspects. I agree that the K20D lag almost certainly was mostly between pre-flash and main flash. No idea what the computer is doing regarding the lag before pre-flash - but if there was another good solution to the K5 (and other models) poor exposure problems, I suspect they would have gone with that on the K-3 flash implementation. Possibly the only silver bullet would be to torpedo an antiquated pTTL design. However, Pentax appears headed toward "all-in" instead.

Last edited by ScooterMaxi Jim; 12-04-2013 at 10:19 PM. Reason: clarified language added
12-06-2013, 12:14 AM   #68
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QuoteOriginally posted by ScooterMaxi Jim Quote
Nice camera and flash combo - I'm sure you got good results. I pretty much knew that was the answer regarding Auto lag (none) - but I am sure that bad engineers could decide to trigger bad results by taking the OEM flash contact setting shutter speed at flash sync and forcing the delay that is normally associated with the contact implementing the pre-flash. That's truly a dumb idea, but we see a lot of crazy over-engineering these days.

I do remember extensive blinkies with the K20d on-board flash, so you know that camera was not particularly quick in pTTL - as good as it was in so many other aspects. I agree that the K20D lag almost certainly was mostly between pre-flash and main flash. No idea what the computer is doing regarding the lag before pre-flash - but if there was another good solution to the K5 (and other models) poor exposure problems, I suspect they would have gone with that on the K-3 flash implementation. Possibly the only silver bullet would be to torpedo an antiquated pTTL design. However, Pentax appears headed toward "all-in" instead.
At present on the k3 we have

Half press , Shutter press , delay , pre flash , shutter/main
I see no logical reason why we can't have
Half press , delay , Shutter press , preflash , shutter/main

Whatever is hapening during the delay can surley happen at half press .?

12-07-2013, 12:30 PM   #69
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There is no delay between pre-flash and flash with the K-3

I tested the K-3 built-in flash with my DA* 60-250mm SDM. There is no exaggerated delay between pre-flash and exposure flash. Unless, of course, the flash sync is set to training curtain sync, in which case there shall be a delay, that's expected or else it wouldn't be trailing sync.

I also ran those tests with the DA 18-135 DC lens. Same findings.

When testing and comparing we have to be careful about, and publish, all relevant settings. It's just too easy to get one setting wrong that will afffect the test but go unnoticed. Here are my settings and observations and all results are as expected:

In all cases: ISO 200, shooting with the viewfinder, P-TTL.

Test 1:
Exposure mode: M
Focus mode: MF
Flash sync. mode: Leading curtain
Shutter speed: 1/90s
F-stop: 5.6
Observation at half press: Nothing happens
Observation at full press: Immediate pre-flash immediately followed by the exposure flash

Test 2:
Exposure mode: M
Focus mode: MF
Flash sync. mode: Trailing curtain
Shutter speed: 1/30s
F-stop: 5.6
Observation at half press: Nothing happens
Observation at full press: Immediate pre-flash, then the exposure flash follows just as the shutter starts to close, i.e. after the expected delay

Test 3:
Exposure mode: P
Focus mode: AF.S, focus priority
Flash sync. mode: Trailing curtain
Shutter speed: 1/4s (set by camera)
F-stop: 4 (set by camera)
Observation at half press: Lens starts focusing
Observation at full press: Immediate pre-flash, then the exposure flash follows just as the shutter starts to close, i.e. after the expected delay

Test 4:
Exposure mode: P
Focus mode: AF.S, focus priority
Flash sync. mode: Leading curtain
Shutter speed: 1/125s (set by camera)
F-stop: 4 (set by camera)
Observation at half press: Bypassed half press, going directly for full press
Observation at full press: Lens focuses, when focus has been achieved, pre-flash fires immediately followed by exposure flash
12-15-2013, 05:31 PM   #70
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Hey,
i recognized that annoying delay wenn shoting with Flash (with internal and external).
So i made that following Video. It compares the K5 with the K3 - same settings.
P-Mode, ISO 400, AF-S, same Lense (Sigma 8-16mm), flash in p-TTL Mode.
I filmed it with the K-7 and slowed it down, so that 1 frame is displayed for 1 sec. The Shutter is released with a remote-control.
Flash3.AVI
and as you can see the k3 is about 0.2 sec slower. The k5 fires the flash in the same frame in which the shot ist triggered (the LED of the RC turns red).
reset of the camera-settings have no effect.
12-24-2013, 08:21 AM   #71
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the new Firmware 1.01 doesn't fix this Problem!

BTW: in Manual Flash-Mode is no delay

Last edited by Omege_Matze; 12-24-2013 at 09:35 AM.
12-24-2013, 01:28 PM   #72
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QuoteOriginally posted by Omege_Matze Quote
the new Firmware 1.01 doesn't fix this Problem!

BTW: in Manual Flash-Mode is no delay
Now I have tested the difference between P-TTL and Manual Flash and I concur that there is a delay from pressing the shutter release until the shutter releases.

I found this out the hard way trying to take pictures of the children getting presents from Mr Santa. Everyone turned away before I could get the shot. Searched the forum, read this thread, switched to manual, went to the children, now playing, and got the shots WHEN I wanted, not ages later...

This must be fixed.
12-25-2013, 04:58 AM   #73
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QuoteOriginally posted by Tjompen1968 Quote
Now I have tested the difference between P-TTL and Manual Flash and I concur that there is a delay from pressing the shutter release until the shutter releases.

I found this out the hard way trying to take pictures of the children getting presents from Mr Santa. Everyone turned away before I could get the shot. Searched the forum, read this thread, switched to manual, went to the children, now playing, and got the shots WHEN I wanted, not ages later...

This must be fixed.
I agree that yes it must be fixed and ALL K3's have this, despite what other owners claim that there is no delay. Prove it with a YouTube video please. I have tried more than 10 units and they all exhibit it also, this includes new batches delivered to the stores.

RICOH ARE YOU READING THIS??

I had a feeling this was not going to be addressed in the first firmware update.
01-09-2014, 12:02 AM   #74
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I just bought a cheap flash (Opteka EF790DG-P super) and have been trying it out. I found that in slave mode it discharges before the shutter opens unless the K3 flash mode is set to manual. I guess the camera must be doing some pre-flash in all modes except manual. If so, maybe we need an extra option to disable the pre-flash and eliminate the delay.
01-09-2014, 08:34 AM   #75
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The pre-flash is a mandatory part of P-TTL. It won't work without it -- that's how the flash's contribution to exposure is evaluated so the necessary flash power can be calculated.

Unfortunately, that DOES mean third-party optical slave flashes won't work, except for ones that understand wireless P-TTL.
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