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11-18-2013, 10:53 AM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by Vylen Quote
I'm running Lightroom 4.3 and have no issues with handling K-3 raw files. This is with DNG but I can't imagine that making a difference?

I don't think you're suffering a hardware limitation.

That said, how bad is the apparent performance you are experiencing? Can't really comment more without knowing what exactly you're observing...
It slowed down in many things, including exporting and importing but two things are the most annoying:

1. When I am browsing through images the image first shows up at very low resolution (the thumbnail I suppose) and then there is a message saying 'loading' and then after a couple of seconds or longer does the image appear in full resolution. This happens in library and in develop mode. This makes it almost impractical to browse quickly through images as while flipping quickly the image is so low resolution that you cannot even tell if it is a keeper or not, With K-30 images there is also this two stage thing but it lasts just the merest fraction of a second. With K-r, Q-10 and images from older cameras either there is not this two stage process or it happens so quickly as to be un-noticeable and appear instant.

2. When making adjustments there is a lot of lag between making the adjustment and that adjustment appearing on the picture. For many of the sliders it is not too bad but the sharpness and noise adjustments are unbearably slow. Again, the K-30 pictures also suffer some slowness but nothing like what I am experiencing with the K-3 files and the K-r and other cameras exhibit what to me looks like instantaneous response. This slowness makes it very difficult to find the optimum combinations for the sharpness and noise reduction settings.

For all the Pentax cameras I am using RAW DNG while for other cameras it is always jpeg. All behave practically the same except the K-30 producing some just noticeable lag while the K-30 files cause unbearable lag.

11-18-2013, 01:06 PM   #17
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K-3 is not listed for support in version 5.3 candidate. Hopefully they correct this.
Lightroom 5.3 RC now available on Adobe Labs
11-18-2013, 01:48 PM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by Steve.Ledger Quote
K-3 is not listed for support in version 5.3 candidate. Hopefully they correct this.
Lightroom 5.3 RC now available on Adobe Labs
It will probably be in 5.4 whenever that happens. An RC usually means that the features and updates are set - there's just checking for bugs now.

11-18-2013, 02:00 PM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by lister6520 Quote
the image first shows up at very low resolution
I get the same thing in LR5.2 and 16MP files from my K-30, although my computer is older and slower than yours. RAW files (in PEF or DNG) have to be processed before they can be displayed, and it's not just decompressing the file. Are there any presets for post-processing that get applied before the picture is displayed? Say sharpening or colour adjustment? The other issue is that Adobe doesn't have a camera profile for the K-3 yet. Without a pre-programmed profile, the software tries to analyze the file before making all the necessary adjustments before displaying a picture, which will slow down the whole process considerably. Lightroom can still open the file, but it does a lot more computing with it before showing you the image you thought you had captured.

11-18-2013, 03:16 PM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by lister6520 Quote
When I am browsing through images
What setting are you using to render previews? [in LR 4.4 Menu: Edit > Catalog Settings > File Handling tab > 'Standard Preview Size' and 'Preview Quality']. I use 2048 pixels as the standard preview size, and medium quality. Seems pretty snappy.

My workflow may however be different from yours. I have adapted, I think, to my slower computer and how these tools work, especially when handling big batches (500 or more, sometimes) of DNG's at a time.

I copy my images from the SD card(s) to a folder on my PC (eg K-5/20131014-rodeo), then add that folder to LR (or re-synchronise an existing folder). The image previews come up very quickly, even of videos. Then I select the images I want to import (usually just everything), select the Standard preview rendering, set some metadata, and then hit the Import button. If I have a lot of images to import, I go away and make a cup of tea and then when I return LR has rendered all the image previews in the catalog to a decent size, and I can start work. Moving between the pre-rendered previews is usually quite quick.
11-18-2013, 03:51 PM   #21
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Adobe have just released the Beta version of ACR V8.3, as used in CS6 unfortunately the K3 is still not supported, there is a possibility that the K3 might still be included in the final version at the end of December.

Adobe Photoshop Camera Raw 8.3 Release Candidate | digital camera raw file support - Adobe Labs

Until then none of the PIE (Parametric Image Editing) algorithms for applying the data which is unique to the camera, created by the camera will be fully working.

Chris

Last edited by ChrisJ; 11-18-2013 at 03:59 PM.
11-21-2013, 07:43 AM - 1 Like   #22
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Adobe RC5.3c K-3 Raw confirmation

This seems to indicate that they plan on putting it in the release... Everyone feel free to go bump that question on the photoshop website.
11-21-2013, 10:57 AM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
What setting are you using to render previews? [in LR 4.4 Menu: Edit > Catalog Settings > File Handling tab > 'Standard Preview Size' and 'Preview Quality']. I use 2048 pixels as the standard preview size, and medium quality. Seems pretty snappy.

My workflow may however be different from yours. I have adapted, I think, to my slower computer and how these tools work, especially when handling big batches (500 or more, sometimes) of DNG's at a time.

I copy my images from the SD card(s) to a folder on my PC (eg K-5/20131014-rodeo), then add that folder to LR (or re-synchronise an existing folder). The image previews come up very quickly, even of videos. Then I select the images I want to import (usually just everything), select the Standard preview rendering, set some metadata, and then hit the Import button. If I have a lot of images to import, I go away and make a cup of tea and then when I return LR has rendered all the image previews in the catalog to a decent size, and I can start work. Moving between the pre-rendered previews is usually quite quick.
I wasn't aware of that setting, but now that you mention it I checked and it is 1440 medium. I tried different settings all the way from 1024 low to 2048 high but it doesn;t seem to be making any difference.

I import pictures directly from the SD card but my problem is not when importing them. That may be a bit slower than it should be but is not a problem as I can just go and make a coffee while they import. The issue I have is when browsing back and forth between images, such as when trying to find the best among a series of continuous shot photos. That is something that needs to be quick and interactive and is indeed so with K-r and K-30 files but for some reason disproportionately slower with the K-3 files.

I have since found that sometimes it does render instantly but I cannot figure out the conditions when this happens. It almost seems as if for some photos it caches a preview which is then available to show quickly but for others not. However I can see no logic as to which pictures are cached and which aren't (if caching has indeed anything to do with it). I could for instance have a continuously shot sequence of 25 pictures looking very similar and while flipping through them some render instantaneously at high resolution while others can take anywhere between one and four seconds to go from the low res preview to the final high resolution. It doesn;t make sense to me but that is how it behaves. I notice this behaviour with the K-30 files as well but the big difference is that in that case when there is the delay it is only a fraction of a second - barely noticeable and of no bother at all.

11-21-2013, 11:09 AM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by RGlasel Quote
I get the same thing in LR5.2 and 16MP files from my K-30, although my computer is older and slower than yours. RAW files (in PEF or DNG) have to be processed before they can be displayed, and it's not just decompressing the file. Are there any presets for post-processing that get applied before the picture is displayed? Say sharpening or colour adjustment? The other issue is that Adobe doesn't have a camera profile for the K-3 yet. Without a pre-programmed profile, the software tries to analyze the file before making all the necessary adjustments before displaying a picture, which will slow down the whole process considerably. Lightroom can still open the file, but it does a lot more computing with it before showing you the image you thought you had capture
What I'm speaking of is usually after having processed the images with sharpening, noise reduction, lens aberration corrections, colours and the whole works. Not sure if that is what you mean by presets. I am aware that it may be applying all those processes each time I flip between one image and another but that would be the case also with the K-30 files.

That it would be a bit slower with the larger K-3 files is understandable but what baffles me is that the amount it slows down is disproportionate to the difference in file size. There is about 50% more data in the K-3 files but it takes easily 10 to 30 times as long to render than the K-30 files. It looks like either there is some limit above which LR just gives up or else there is something different in the structure of the K-3 files that is tripping it up, possibly what you mention about there not being a specific K-3 profile.
11-21-2013, 03:07 PM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by lister6520 Quote
or else there is something different in the structure of the K-3 files that is tripping it up
There was that issue that others have mentioned here about how K-3 DNG's do indeed have some new data structure elements in them. This has caused a variety of difficulties for EXIF reading (like lens tags) and may also complicate the task of processing K-3 DNG's for some apps, possibly including Lightroom.

A new version of exiftool (v9.41) has been released that has attempted to deal with some of these K-3 idiosyncrasies ("Extract information from the new Pentax APP7 segment").
11-21-2013, 10:01 PM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by lister6520 Quote
it may be applying all those processes each time
I'm pretty sure it is, because non-destructive editing is basically saving the instructions in a script, not a modified image. Larger files will take longer to process, but if everything else is equal, the difference should be linear (about 50% longer for K-3 images). What isn't equal is the amount of analysis that needs to be done before applying effects, because Adobe hasn't implemented a camera profile for the K-3 yet. Since Lightroom treats your K-3 images like generic DNG files with metadata it doesn't understand, I suspect that is why you are noticing such a difference in processing speed.

QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
K-3 DNG's do indeed have some new data structure elements in them.
I am concerned that you might be headed in the same direction as posters in other threads in thinking of different DNG file formats. There really is no such thing, the DNG format allows for virtually any and all metadata that the camera can provide. The image data itself is saved in a specific TIFF format. Software that reads the DNG file may not be able to use all of the metadata included in the file, or may not need all of the information provided. Camera profiles are a way to deal with specific metadata from specific cameras. Different sensors will produce different results even if the same metadata is provided by the camera, so if the K-3 inserts metadata in the DNG file in exactly the same way as the K-5 (same data structure), the software has to a) recognize that the file came from a camera it doesn't have a profile for, and b) examine the file first to determine how to process the data in order to produce a usable image.

The best solution for Lightroom users is for Adobe to implement a camera profile for the K-3 in its software as soon as possible. If you spend any time doing post-processing, you adopt a certain workflow to get consistent results, and switching software mid-stream will kill your productivity for quite some time (and tempt you to throw out the baby/camera with the bath water).
11-21-2013, 10:08 PM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
A new version of exiftool (v9.41) has been released that has attempted to deal with some of these K-3 idiosyncrasies
Won't help with post-processing. EXIF data is parsed from the RAW file (DNG, PEF, etc.), so unless exiftool writes any edits to the RAW file itself, it shouldn't make things worse for post-processing, but there is no way it can speed up Lightroom for instance.
11-21-2013, 11:12 PM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by RGlasel Quote
thinking of different DNG file formats
Not really. I figure that a DNG file is just a box with a TIFF and some metadata in it.

About the K-3, the K-3 metadata does have some changes (eg totally new data fields) in it compared to previous Pentaxes like the K-5. You can see that in exiftool. Some of these may contain trivial information, others may contain useful info for rendering an image. That is indeed one of the areas where a camera profile prepared by the boffins at Adobe fits into the picture.

I can imagine a camera profile telling Lightroom something like this - 'hey, this DNG comes from a K-3, this stores 14bits, don't forget to read fields x,y and z in the metadata for important information on exposure and metering that you'll need. And don't forget to chop off a few pixels around all sides when outputting any image to avoid black noisy borders' etc etc. That conversation may be very different when opening a K-20 or K-30 DNG.

Last edited by rawr; 11-21-2013 at 11:17 PM.
11-21-2013, 11:15 PM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by RGlasel Quote
Won't help with post-processing.
I think you mis-interpret what I was saying. I was just trying to illustrate a point. exiftool was updated for exiftool to take into account some of the changes in the K-3, not to make Lightroom any smarter. That's Adobe's job.

Last edited by rawr; 11-21-2013 at 11:22 PM.
11-21-2013, 11:19 PM   #30
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