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11-27-2013, 04:25 PM   #16
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The K3 wide angle shot has nauseating image distortion due to the flawed software SR, it looks really rubbish. Can't believe they would put that into a production camera when they had a perfectly good system in the K5. I hope they come to their senses and re-enable hardware SR for video but I doubt it considering they haven't done that for the last 3 models. The guy who made the decision to go with this system should be sacked.

QuoteOriginally posted by grispie Quote
ok,
comparing the SR K01 vs K3
very rough videos, just indoors...
Both settings equal, recorded at FullHD 30p / iso1600

the plant shots are made with a m100mm 2.8
the cat with DA70
the living room with m28mm 3.5

the title says which camera and it may be best to download the shots (download arrow on top to the right...). Otherwise it might not be playing fluent...
LATEST - IMAGES

draw your own conclusion
the real test will be outdoors though...

Read more at: https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/172-pentax-k-3/238987-pentax-k-3-video-di...#ixzz2lszNvOoc


11-27-2013, 05:02 PM   #17
osv
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ayoh Quote
The K3 wide angle shot has nauseating image distortion due to the flawed software SR.
that image distortion is rolling shutter jellocam, it can't be fixed with any sr system on the planet.

we need to know what shutter speed was used, and it needs to be re-shot with different shutter speeds, to see if anything can be done.

some of the k01 shots actually looked worse than that, lol... that k01 plant shot especially, was just terrible!
11-27-2013, 05:29 PM   #18
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The effect is due to rolling shutter not being properly accommodated in software SR exaggerating image skewing. Compare some video's with software/hardware SR on and off and you will see. Hardware SR does not have this exaggerated skewing.

Do some research before you chime in with slapdash hyperbole.

QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
that image distortion is rolling shutter jellocam, it can't be fixed with any sr system on the planet.

we need to know what shutter speed was used, and it needs to be re-shot with different shutter speeds, to see if anything can be done.

some of the k01 shots actually looked worse than that, lol... that k01 plant shot especially, was just terrible!
11-27-2013, 09:23 PM   #19
osv
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ayoh Quote
Hardware SR does not have this exaggerated skewing.
you are confusing wobble with skew:

"Probably the most-talked-about rolling shutter effect is “wobble.” Wobble is related to Skew, and is caused by the same root causes, but Wobble is far more troublesome. Whereas Skew represents a leaning of vertical objects, Wobble is a stretchy/rubbery look that happens to the video. Wobble is more likely to occur in handheld footage, or in situations where the camcorder is subject to vibration or sudden motion... direct linear motion (such as a tripod pan) shouldn’t cause any wobble at all (just skew), but handheld footage or footage subject to vibration is just going to wobble."
CMOS Rolling Shutter

again, there isn't any sr system on the planet that can duplicate the stability of a tripod.

11-27-2013, 09:40 PM   #20
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With ideal compensation in hardware SR the sensor is not moving relative to the captured image, just the camera body is - the captured image is tracked by physical sensor movement. In software SR the sensor is always moving - the captured image is tracked across the sensor plane through image analysis. In second case the tracking must compensate for rolling shutter effects, in the first case it does not. Pentax software SR does not compensate for rolling shutter hence the image distortion.

As to your comments on lack of SR technology on "the planet" which can duplicate a tripod - that is an empty statement with no basis in fact. Lets move on now.

QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
you are confusing wobble with skew:

"Probably the most-talked-about rolling shutter effect is “wobble.” Wobble is related to Skew, and is caused by the same root causes, but Wobble is far more troublesome. Whereas Skew represents a leaning of vertical objects, Wobble is a stretchy/rubbery look that happens to the video. Wobble is more likely to occur in handheld footage, or in situations where the camcorder is subject to vibration or sudden motion... direct linear motion (such as a tripod pan) shouldn’t cause any wobble at all (just skew), but handheld footage or footage subject to vibration is just going to wobble."
CMOS Rolling Shutter

again, there isn't any sr system on the planet that can duplicate the stability of a tripod.

Last edited by Ash; 11-28-2013 at 01:08 AM.
11-27-2013, 10:51 PM - 1 Like   #21
osv
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ayoh Quote
You are the one that is confused. Try and understand the issue before criticising.
you have criticized the k-3 sr in multiple posts, and you refuse to understand the real-world limitations of sr technology.

i gave you a link that clearly explained what jellocam is, and why you are wrong, but you ignored it.

the k-3 is a killer camera, if you don't like the sr, learn how to use a tripod... that's how professionals shoot video.
11-27-2013, 11:39 PM   #22
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shutter was 1/60.

and i took the living room shots out.
they are irrelevant

Last edited by grispie; 11-28-2013 at 12:40 AM. Reason: update
11-28-2013, 08:43 AM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ayoh Quote
In software SR the sensor is always moving - the captured image is tracked across the sensor plane through image analysis..
Best to just use Adobe's warp stabilizer IMHO.

I was hoping Pentax had some sort of overrecord mode for that and record an extra 200-300 pixels on each edge so you can use Premiere to stabilize it afterwards. That would have been a nice thinking out of the box idea....

11-29-2013, 08:30 PM   #24
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And now please tell me how vibration controle happens in the lense,
when there is a camera without mechanical or digital shake reduction.

Btw.: Could one call the sensor SR an almost "analog" happening ?

I was believing till now ... that digital, or movie SR is done by cropping the
shaky wide angle into a more relaxed but smaller area... Am I wrong ?

I mean this is the way YouTube does it to reduce a shaky video. Let's say
you have 17mm in your glass and after work you only get 25mm out of it ...

Correct me please ...
11-30-2013, 01:46 AM - 1 Like   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
you have criticized the k-3 sr in multiple posts, and you refuse to understand the real-world limitations of sr technology.

i gave you a link that clearly explained what jellocam is, and why you are wrong, but you ignored it.

the k-3 is a killer camera, if you don't like the sr, learn how to use a tripod... that's how professionals shoot video.
Cause you can always shoot using a tripod... Also, that's how professionals shoot video? Really? I remember ONE movie that had only static shots. ONE. And even there there was one non static shot. And it was a rather artsy arthouse movie. Every other movie is shot handheld, using a steadicam, dolly, ... of course not all shots, but some at least.


SR, REAL, optical SR (either through an element in the lens or the sensor being able to move) will not have the wobble effect as long as the SR system is able to correct the movement. It makes sure that what arrives on the sensor doesn't move. Now if you pan, there will be rolling shutter, but since it only leans into one direction, and doesn't move randomly, it can be corrected more easily, and it isn't as distracting. It is the random micromovements that are the most distracting when using a camera with a CMOS sensor. Electronic SR can work well enough on a CCD sensor, or it can be done there in post. But CMOS... you are screwed. Also, even when you use CCD or it corrects for rolling shutter, you will still get random motion blur in different directions on a static shot when shooting at slower shutter speeds.


@TomGarn: That's exactly what happens. The camera takes a part of the sensor, and changes that part of the sensor depending on what it needs to correct camera movement. With CMOS sensors the problem is that you have a rolling shutter, so first line of the frame was taken at a different time than the last one, or any other. So the top part of the video stays stable, but the bottom part moves around. YouTube (and other software based solutions that use the video footage after it was recorded) can correct only what is needed (i.e. when the video is already pretty smooth there is no need to crop so much out), and they can avoid panning back, since they know you are going to stop a pan. However you lose in resolution. In camera electronic solutions better know about the motion that is actually happening (thanks to sensors), so I suppose less processing power is needed. However they have the same problem as sensor based SR and optical IS... they don't know what happens in future, so after a pan they will have to pan back cause they didn't know you wanted to stop. Now you could program the system so that it will not move back, but then you have little motion left to correct into one direction.


Vibration control or optical IS in the lens works by having a glass element in the lens that can move around. It will change the frame of the image that arrives on the sensor, and it does it so that what arrives at the sensor stays stable. Typically these have a wider range of motion than sensor based systems and work better... however not all lenses are offered with such a system, and the system costs money. Quite a bit. Per lens. IIRC you can either buy a 70-200 4 with IS or a 70-200 2.8 without IS. They are similar in price. That's how expensive these systems seem to be...


Higher end consumer video cameras have an optical IS, while lower end only have an electronic one. If electronic ones are so good, why do the much more expensive models have an optical system?
11-30-2013, 06:12 AM   #26
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Yes, optical SR has been high-end always ...
Btw.: Tamron offers VC lenses that are more affordable, but for Pentax K they
don't produce them of course, what a pity ! For video those glasses would be great.
So one might adapt a Tamron with VC for Canon or Nikon towards the Pentax body ?

I do talk about the Tamron I know: SP AF 17-50mm F/2,8 XR Di II VC LD Aspherical [IF]
It got a good VC on board, but the working area is smaller than the Pentax Sensor-SR area.
And then there is a costly: SP 70-200mm F/2.8 Di VC USD - I heard good things about only

QuoteOriginally posted by kadajawi Quote
Now if you pan, there will be rolling shutter
1. Slow panning creates that ugly sensor-roll-back that I have demonstrated
2. Quick panning creates rolling shutter.
These things are not to be mixed, for they have different reasons of course.

Btw.:
Look what I found. This is about some kind of software able to kill Rolling Shutter:

Last edited by TomGarn; 11-30-2013 at 06:41 AM.
11-30-2013, 08:21 AM   #27
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Now are the Tamron VC lenses are as good or better than the built in SR of a K-3/5? If the working area is even smaller than that of the Pentax I'd tend to answer with no... though you'd have to test it properly first. Usually I find the range of the K-5 a bit limited, I wish it could cover a larger area. Even less than that... hm.


1. It depends. I can get the roll back that you described, but I can also shoot (carefully) to avoid it. You must really fade out though. Perhaps with some practice it can turn into a non issue.
2. Actually the sensor has a rolling shutter, no matter what you do, but that's just semantics.
What I really meant was that the SR system completely removes the rolling shutter effect when you're just shaking a bit and the SR system can eliminate that. If you shake and pan, the SR system will smoothen that out, but you do get the rolling shutter effect. However since it is a smooth movement it should be easier to be fixed.


Premiere Pro CS6 seems to have a rolling shutter eliminator built in, and it looks like it works. But... the footage he uses, and that I used, only showed pans. Pans are easier to correct than the wobble you get from shaking the camera. That may be impossible to correct.


I'd like to redirect you to the footage and comments I've posted here: https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/172-pentax-k-3/238987-pentax-k-3-video-discussion-41.html
Rather than using the K-3 movie SR I'd rather shoot the K-3 without at a high shutter speed, run the footage through the warp stabilizer and then add motion blur if needed.
11-30-2013, 10:06 AM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by kadajawi Quote
Cause you can always shoot using a tripod... Also, that's how professionals shoot video? Really? I remember ONE movie that had only static shots. ONE. And even there there was one non static shot. And it was a rather artsy arthouse movie. Every other movie is shot handheld, using a steadicam, dolly, ... of course not all shots, but some at least.
have you ever taken a telecommunications class? have you ever been paid to shoot video? how about posting up some samples of video that you have shot and edited... lets see some of your hand-held dslr work.

there are a lot of hot-air opinions out here, with only one or two people posting up anything that they have shot.

where is the proof that any of you can pull off a hand-held dslr shot? for example, that grispie shot of the cat was pretty good!

"hand-held" is when you hold the camera *only*, nothing else, and no, that's not how pros shoot video... you'll see, when you actually try do it, instead of just talking about it.
11-30-2013, 10:10 AM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by kadajawi Quote
Premiere Pro CS6 seems to have a rolling shutter eliminator built in, and it looks like it works.
software fixes like that wreck the resolution, it's terrible.

i agree that optical stabilization helps some things, in fact it's a must-have for some types of shots, but ultimately there isn't any fix for rolling shutter... you have to shoot around it.
11-30-2013, 10:51 AM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by kadajawi Quote
Higher end consumer video cameras have an optical IS, while lower end only have an electronic one. If electronic ones are so good, why do the much more expensive models have an optical system?
typically it used to be that different manufacturers did it different ways; one company was optical, one company was electronic, etc.

these days even the cheapest canon camcorder(list $267), has a sophisticated hybrid stabilization system.. i don't think that there is anything in the dslr world that compares to this:
Optical System (Lens-shift system)

Intelligent IS in Auto/Baby mode:

Dynamic IS (default)
Powered IS
Macro IS
Tripod Mode

IS Modes other than Intelligent IS; Dynamic IS and Powered IS settings can be made manually in Manual1/Cinema Mode:

Standard IS
IS Off

*Angle detection and sensor-based movement vector detection (hybrid supported)
1 P, SCN2
2 Portrait, Sports, Snow, Beach, Sunset, Night, Low Light, Spotlight, Fireworks)
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