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12-26-2013, 05:38 AM - 2 Likes   #61
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Rampant Fanboyism?

Regarding the claim that Pentaxians are skewing the poll results (and the K-3 still hovers around 31%, the next three about 1/2 that), I'm sure that the Canon and Nikon users can read and vote as easily as anyone. The poll is available to any DPR member, so if a D7100 or 70D fanboy wanted to see 'their' brand show better numbers, the solution is merely a couple of clicks away.
Depending upon whom you listen to, C/N control 60%-90% of the DSLR market and Pentax accounts for 1%-5%. If just a small percentage of C/N voted only by brand loyalty, the numbers would be wildly reversed.
That the interest and demand for the K-3 is so high can only mean that many non-Pentaxians recognize the achievement for what it is. A camera they wish had a different brand name on it. It represents a serious uptick in the evolution of the APS-C DSLR, a feature-rich and performance-oriented photographic tool without frills or unnecessary gadgetry. While I have serious doubts about the validity of DPR's review system (and timing), there are many honest and dedicated photographers there, just as there are here. The main difference is that their member-base encompasses the entire camera brand spectrum.
If the K-3 continues to dominate this poll, regardless of the fanboyism factor, DPR is liable to look even more foolish than they already do. They're backing the wrong horse, their own members have spoken and they're too enamoured with the two 800 lb gorillas to notice.
Things are changing in DSLR-land. Perhaps not as quickly as we would like, but the K-3 may well be seen a decade from now, as a bellweather of those changes. Canon and Nikon are now in the unfamiliar and uncomfortable position of playing catch-up.
JMO,
Ron

12-26-2013, 06:02 AM   #62
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QuoteOriginally posted by rbefly Quote
The poll is available to any DPR member, so if a D7100 or 70D fanboy wanted to see 'their' brand show better numbers, the solution is merely a couple of clicks away.
No way! Nikon is a premium camera brand, remember? That means that people who use Nikon have superior standards and would never stoop so low as us Pentaxians, with a doomed brand, would! [/sarcasm] As if voting for the camera you like on an online poll is fanboyism.. so the only way to not be a fanboy is to get a knife and remove all brand logos from your camera and only vote for other brands
12-26-2013, 07:56 AM   #63
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QuoteOriginally posted by jiimaa Quote
Preventing fanboyism to a degree would of course be DPReview dismissing the votes for own camera or brand, just counting the ones who have voted their "not own" model or brand, ending up with votes of which is best, but not the one I use.
Right , because all those who use a specific camera are fanboys of that camera. Not one of them has ever picked a camera because it was the best one for thier needs. And for those of us who have done our homework, and bought the camera that best suits us, we should be eliminated in favor of votes cast by those who only know the marketing hype for each brand?

You seem to be doing your best to create a different skew, not an un-skewed poll. One that would find out which company is able to create the most demand through marketing since voters would only be voting for cameras that for the most part they'd know nothing about. Such a poll would be useful only to marketing execs trying to justify their salaries.

On your second point,

QuoteQuote:
Also, the poll is somewhat skewed in favor of Pentax, because there is really just one Pentax option for the "best DSLR" in the list - come on, the other two Pentax models don't really belong to the list, funneling the Pentax votes to just one model, while the other brands (except the last one) have multiple valid options causing spread, giving Pentax an advantage.
Actually, it looks like the cameras are all cameras released this year. Your assertion that there is just one Pentax option is simply a fabrication. There are 3 not 1 all released this year. Saying something is "really" so doesn't make it true. Saying 3 are 1 doesn't make it so. In fact, if everyone who votes for Pentax, are Pentax fanboys, as you claim, then having three models siphons votes away from the K-3.

It's ok to try and come up with a neutral playing field. But you're going to far. Your views have become biased against Pentax. As if there would be some value in creating a poll that Pentax couldn't win. And claiming that this is one Pentax couldn't lose, or at least has stacked in it's favor. And really, you haven't even established that there is a Pentax bias to this poll. I'm sure for those who don't value the Pentax brand, they look at those numbers and think "there must be something wrong." For those who do, we'd say, "it's nice to see a great camera getting some respect." (And I would think the same thing if they just had a respectable showing, I don't need them to lead the pack to make that judgement.)

I guess you just put yourself in the first group.

So, my question to you would be, why are you doing that?

Last edited by normhead; 12-26-2013 at 08:02 AM.
12-26-2013, 08:27 AM   #64
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I agree with this guy. Well said.

QuoteOriginally posted by Jon Quote
The only segment of the photography industry with growth potential at the moment is Mirrorless cameras. An FF DSLR would surely increase the perception of Pentax in the Pro-DSLR discussion, but Canon and Nikon are struggling for not effectively embracing mirrorless quickly enough and find themselves losing sales to Fujifilm, Sony, and even Olympus's m4/3. While us Pentax DSLR shooters want an FF option, I agree that the market as a whole may not need one. Since Pentax would have to build a new lens line regardless of choice, A Q-style camera with a reasonable sensor size (APS-C) might be more viable. Mind you, they shouldn't associate it with the Q system.


12-26-2013, 08:36 AM   #65
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CIPA disagrees with you both.
12-26-2013, 08:46 AM   #66
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I guess you haven't been on some of the other forums to hear the diatribes about how crappy the viewfinder is in the A7 and A7r for moving objects or low light and viewfinder lag.. I've been avoiding going into the A7 threads on this forum, don't want to dampen anyone's love of their camera, but for guys who shoot like I do, apparently mirror-less technology just isn't there yet. It's a very sedate person who can be happy with mirror-less right now.
12-26-2013, 08:54 AM - 2 Likes   #67
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I guess the ultimate form of fanboyism is to ask an entire industry to make only one kind of products. I saw some extreme examples on the other forum, in areas I usually avoid.
Being happy with your choice is not fanboyism, though; it's called being smart and making the right (personal) choices.
12-26-2013, 09:40 AM   #68
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Being happy with your choice is not fanboyism, though; it's called being smart and making the right (personal) choices.
Well said.

Are (some) Pentaxians more self-conscious than other brands' users?

It seems that so many owners feel the need to justify their choices. I don't hang around other sites so it might be a wrong assumption that it does not occur elsewhere too.

12-26-2013, 09:49 AM   #69
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There are 83% confirmed Canon and Nikon current and former owners, on DPReview Poll, and only 12% Pentax owners.

So, I don't think that Pentax owners are much more conscious.
12-26-2013, 10:43 AM   #70
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Ooh a long reply. I like long replies, they are often really good or go way over someone's head. Norm's in this case I guess. I think you misunderstood the texts you quoted, but I like how you first disowned the effect, yet proceeded (managed, even) to construct ad hominem argument out of it nonetheless, cleverly dismissing any line of interpretation that didn't quite fit in your vision of what you thought I said.

In short,
QuoteQuote:
Right , because [...] ?
No, and... no. The point was not followed through by you, otherwise you would've seen it & emphasized the gap between the votes & owners of K-3. To re-word that for you, if they did that invalidation of "self" votes, most of the other brands' votes would disappear, and K-3 would lead by more significant gap to others. Because there are people who go like this: Ooh I see a vote is going on -> hey that's the one I have -> vote it. The numbers in the post before my last post in this thread (especially the %'s) give out hint of the amounts: K-3 leads the pack with 400 % votes to owners. That means, by those numbers, for every 1 owner, 3 non-owners voted it. The key is in the relation of these numbers: Things are not at all so good with the others. Their % of votes to owners are less, implying owners voting their own cameras. Invalidating those, K-3 would destroy the competition.

I don't even know how you managed to turn it around like you did, but I like it for the sheer difficulty of not getting it.

QuoteQuote:
On your second point,
OK off the top of your head say which points make the K-50 and K-500 both viable competitors for a title of Best DSLR Of 2013. Don't think. Just lay it out. They're the best of the best of the best, and not only that, they're the cherry on top of the icing on the very top layer of the cake. Why. What justifies their existence on this very short list of the very best.

Nothing at all. Why? Because K-3 in eclipses anything and everything else in Pentaxiarnia.

The situation is different in Nikoviet Union and Canon County. On one of them the thing is close to what it'd be for Pentaxiarnia if we had the FF last year, and on the list would be the 2nd iteration of that, then an LX-D FF or something similar, on top of the K-3. What would that have done -> spread the votes between the FF II, the K-3 and the LX-D. See it? There's multiple segment good competitors for the title of said cherry on the top. Pentax has three on the list, of which only one is a real competitor. The vote counts provide all the evidence you want for it. Apart from a few complicated thought processes (considering in great detail the segments and values - which sorry but not many are willing or able to do), a couple misclicks or protest votes, they're nowhere near winning the thing. It all funnels the Pentax attention to the K-3. It sort of establishes the Pentax as equal to Nikon and Canon in terms that there are three options on the list, but only one of them is really an option to actually win this thing.

I'll just ignore what else you said because I frankly can't follow your line of reasoning, and keep track of any groups, and don't know what the first group was I'm supposed to belong to. Can we make a new group where what I said was of neutral tone not intended to construct any type of pro-Pentax or anti-Pentax systems like you seem to believe, and put me in that group of those who don't a rat's ass about what it is you actually do (or here own/shoot/vote), but how. As for the saying "really" doesn't do something, I'm not sure what word your lot uses when the argument should apply to practice only, not theoretical possibilities of existence. Like your head seems to have worked when you read the message I wrote, but not really. That 'really' there doesn't mean it did not actually work, only in practice the effectiveness of it seemed to be, how should I put that, somehow hasty in nature, compared to an optimal or careful execution and analysis of things.

Last edited by jiimaa; 12-26-2013 at 01:20 PM.
12-26-2013, 12:37 PM   #71
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I suppose I'm getting old, and lazy, including mentally lazy, so I can't be bothered to do the necessary calculations. And perhaps I'm not even taking the time to fully digest everything that is being said in this thread. The point is, given Pentax's small market share, I fail to see how fanboyism can skew the results so heavily in Pentax's favour.
12-26-2013, 12:38 PM   #72
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So some of us twist around to say this doesn't mean anything good for Pentax and the usual suspects (I'm in that group, I guess) twist back and rebut, and somehow we make an ad hominem in there. Jeez. It's a subjective internet poll with all the non-scientific built-in biases they entail.

And a DPR poll on top of everything else.

Though I admit it is nice to see Pentax leading at something for once.

P.S. If it was warmer than 17 I'd be outside with my suspiciously over-voted K3 instead of here.
12-26-2013, 06:13 PM   #73
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
CIPA disagrees with you both.

Humble pie bites.
01-01-2014, 01:45 AM   #74
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Seems like the poll closed.

With the K-3 still in a very comfortable lead.

Will DPReview take notice?
01-01-2014, 02:04 AM   #75
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
Seems like the poll closed.

With the K-3 still in a very comfortable lead.

Will DPReview take notice?
I think they will just let it die a natural death.
No announcement nor headline to tally the results.
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