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05-01-2015, 05:35 AM   #46
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QuoteOriginally posted by JimmyDranox Quote
I saw on DPReview that the new comparison tool, has a setting for daylight and low light. And the cameras tested in this way includes many Nikons, and Pentax K-3. Also Canon 6D, and 5D III. And jpeg and RAW.

In low light, and high ISO, almost every camera perform worst. And I was surprised that Nikon D610 is almost as week in low light as K-3. Canon 6D and 5D III are better in those condition, and in jpeg the difference is quiet big in terms of noise. But they also loose more details that other cameras.
Uhh ohh, i like this thread as i am in very same boat with OP with one exception - i do have K-3, now with latest firmware 1.2. I did upgrade from K-30 i was very satisfied with. Was not maybe best offer but looked viable option to replace via store as upgrade (yeah i still miss K30). What i expected, to get much, i mean much more out from new body, specially from new sensor and then expand my current (nonexistent) gear (i have DA50 1,8, Helios 58mm M7 and Sigma 17-50 f2.8 as my main walkie) (used to have samyang 85 mm F1.4 and tried most pentax DA lenses in range 12 - 300 mm via rentals)

Why i am then is same boat as OP? Because i can not get quality from K3 like i see landing Canon 5D mark III and II, Nikon D810 or D800whatever, even D610. Not talking about phase one - this beast blows any other camera as lightweight wannabe out of ring.
Before all limited LBA-people will struggle to run me down - i am missing limiteds- yes i do (but have tried many of them 15, 21, 20-40 35, 50 different versions). Also you can consider me noob, shooting now 3 years as hobbyist - specially as many of you are shooting from 70-s.
Can i use proper filters - no, have only few and not best ones, as too expensive for me yet. So i use some Cokin ND-s and try survive with them. Sigma needs filters bad, specially on landscapes, so did Samyang. Ghots, flares, comas.

Now to point. Every camera make pictures in right conditions, well.
To have WR - yes, i would call that worry-free and another big bonus. But In landscapes, riverscapes and etc, you have to be able shoot from morning mist to dawn in riverbed or bog. Rivers lakes and bogs, trees tend to be my main objects. People are too complicated and none of my lenses are for reach something flying fast and far away.
First K3 did add detail, maybe too much compared to K30 on my sigma. But those details are not look-able as good similar pictures taken with canons nikons i listed above. i can get sometimes close, but not exactly "there". What i get out you can look here, if you have plenty of time or otherwise nothing better to do: https://www.flickr.com/photos/kriimurohelisedsilmad/
About latest 400 should be taken with K3. If you can not tell difference by picture, then K3 is not much better than K30. Feel free to critique, if you wish.

One more thing to mention - i don't care shit about auto AF-S or AF-E regimes, in any means. I shoot manual. With all lenses. I use my sigma manual mode full time, so do i with every other pentax lens. Yes i use tracking system to select/set focus point and area, but thats it. Focusing and sharpening is made manual. Nor do i use LCD screen more than just to check white balance and exposure where ok after i did shot. Feel free call me freak, it it makes relief.
What i can say - indoors, without flash (sometimes happens) is K3 not much better than K30 was. It very much depends on lighting, but mostly quite difficult to get proper shots from artists and etc. Reason? High ISO noise. There are sources of light you can rise ISO to 3200 or 6400, and have nice picture taken and in other conditions were you can not go up from 800 without massive noise.

Yesterday, before reading this article here, i was seeking experiences from users, who have used different camera systems. I also looked long comparisons on dpreview testshots. Selected different cameras, ISO-s and looked raw and jpeg results here Samsung NX1 Review: Digital Photography Review ( just choose your camera selections and go). And avoiding "normhead like suggestions" - about real world pictures - those test-shots are very real.

What i did mention. If i would put them in subjective order, then: Phase one > till anything else is big step down > nikonD810/Canon 5D quite equal, but in different areas, Canon 6D rocks on ISO performance considering price, Sony best models about same as K3, but i would say - K3 details on green grass/hair are worst, with more blur, worse resolution from all mentioned. Also Sony and K3 sensor (also sony sensor) ISO noise is much worse than Canon 6D Or 5D. Nikon and even D4S has some prominent CA. And -last but not least - i did not see much talked excel in Pentax 645Z performance also.... Last made me think about Issue -will i upgrade to future FF on Pentax, If sensor is again something from existing Sony line??? I have big doubt about it.

And looking these "a lot of noise" in-room pictures previously here on thread.. This adds doubt about ISO handling.
Other hard conditions for K3 are - rain, wet snow, fog, dust in air - mornings and late evenings, so low light + hard to focus atmosphere. You need ISO performance here. If river you can take with underexposed long time and low ISO and see good picture, you can not make same while making panorama or shooting cornfield in wind against the sun. And nor did K30 excel in bog mist and fog, nor does not K3. I would say
better not to try with those.... (yea they work very well in clear night and stars and etc)

So while 6D have old sensor, it's "only" 20 MB - it gives much better ISO by those test in my opinion and even better details in same studio conditions, than Sony or K3 sensor.

Ok, what i do not know -what lens did they use. It may matter a lot. But i assume, they did some reasonable lens choice.
On flickr best landscape shots have done with 6D, 5D, D800, D810 and similar. Pentax lags behind, so do i, like i this or not. Maybe this is because user-base difference, but i doubt. No reason to be overall less skilled by pentaxians.

Considering i have last chance to choose my lens way- i have to decide - stay or go seeking better quality in different brand.
Yes, i know what Pentax offers -small size, collection of prime lenses probably for less money sometimes, good (interesting were- not here in estonia) after-market and two very good FF new long zooms. All those nice features we find at "pro" cameras with lesser price...

But. If i am right, then very core is out of balance -and i mean sensor ability.
All those bells and whistles make K3 "pro level or close to it camera", but as i look it now - maybe not high level enough.

And as such 6D looks like closest by price option. nikon D610 also. Most others are out of topic by price. I will not go with sony (because EVF only).
I know, that i just don't know their bad sides yet.

Whatever camera i choose, there will be a lot to learn, specially light handling, filters and etc. In this means, brand doesn't matter too much. Money and PICTURE quality do.
What i do not like in any forum reviews. A lot of people are not able to consider and talk facts. Are opinions and beliefs. Both lack personal experience or serious testing behind.

So its very difficult to find ones, who will tell what camera or brand gives him what features and what do one loose, on another brand.
But right now, i will proceed looking -is it pentax way, canon way or nikon way to go ahead. At the moment, I am quite serious about testing out 6D or some nikon against K3.

05-01-2015, 05:47 AM   #47
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Vihmameister, there's no way around the reality that the physical size of the sensor is going to be the #1 factor in high-ISO noise. You can get a little more resolution going from 16 to 24 MP and removing the anti-alias filter but it's still the same sensor size. If you compare a Canon 7D to a 5D or a Nikon D7100 to a D750, you'll reach the exact same conclusions as you found with the Pentax.
05-01-2015, 06:34 AM   #48
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QuoteQuote:
Why i am then is same boat as OP? Because i can not get quality from K3 like i see landing Canon 5D mark III and II, Nikon D810 or D800whatever, even D610.
And what makes you think you can get the quality images you see from those cameras even if you own those cameras. I see a lot of images on the Pentax forum taken with K-3s, that I can't take.

The fallacy here is "I can't take a good picture with a K-3, therefore maybe I can with a "Canon 5D mark III and II, Nikon D810 or D800whatever, even D610.". The one thing you are forgetting with you comparisons... how many images are taken with each camera, what type of photographer shoots with each camera?

So I read that and think, "Well I can take a good picture with a K-3, as good as what I see from other camera manufacturers cameras, so none of that makes any sense to me." Especially when you are talking about a 6D, where you have one stop better high ISO performance, but you have to give up one stop D0F to get it. Shooting at the same DOF you get the same performance.
05-01-2015, 09:30 AM   #49
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
And what makes you think you can get the quality images you see from those cameras even if you own those cameras. I see a lot of images on the Pentax forum taken with K-3s, that I can't take.

The fallacy here is "I can't take a good picture with a K-3, therefore maybe I can with a "Canon 5D mark III and II, Nikon D810 or D800whatever, even D610.". The one thing you are forgetting with you comparisons... how many images are taken with each camera, what type of photographer shoots with each camera?

So I read that and think, "Well I can take a good picture with a K-3, as good as what I see from other camera manufacturers cameras, so none of that makes any sense to me." Especially when you are talking about a 6D, where you have one stop better high ISO performance, but you have to give up one stop D0F to get it. Shooting at the same DOF you get the same performance.
Did you looked on my pictures, to say - i can not take good ones at all, or just bashing?
But short answer - yolanda, i learn, and i do that quickly.
Second extended answer - my skill or absence of it will be obvious after i accommodate to something else. And i can do everything by skill on any camera - if i change. And i still have to learn same things.

While you did your post, seeking reasons why is should fail, i visited store and actually tried Nikon 750 with Nikkor 24-120mm F4 GEO VR and Canon Eos 6D with Canon EF 24-105 mm F4.0 IS VSM (some L series lens). Now i just take my comparisons. There after i will rent one of them and try it in practice for week for example.
Hand-held, some 120 shots with both and with my K3 also.

For me fallacy looks like one who suggest a lot and measure few. Another missed point of yours - this is time for me to choose what gear to acquire. This is REASON, not thinking that any camera shoots for me.

---------- Post added 05-01-15 at 07:38 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
Vihmameister, there's no way around the reality that the physical size of the sensor is going to be the #1 factor in high-ISO noise. You can get a little more resolution going from 16 to 24 MP and removing the anti-alias filter but it's still the same sensor size. If you compare a Canon 7D to a 5D or a Nikon D7100 to a D750, you'll reach the exact same conclusions as you found with the Pentax.
Im am not seeking way around physics. But, look then Sony sensor perfomance against Canon and Nikon. Sony have FF sensor available. Same or similar behavior and flaws as K3 have. And if only that matters, 645z should do extremely well, but this is not case- not in ISO, not in details clarity -same test charts. I mean - 645 has noise a lot of it on higher iso.

05-01-2015, 11:01 AM   #50
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I never had a K3 but I do have a 6D (not for that long, however). Just pointing out the obvious is one is APS-C and one is full-frame - many people choose based on that. I did not, though - it was to get another angle of view with my 17mm TS lens for a lot less than another TS lens.

However, it is pretty nice, does what I want, was an upgrade in many ways from my bought-used original 5D, and currently goes for $1399 in bundle with a big printer or other things.

I'm glad I have it, but I also have an APS-C body with a rotating touch-screen, that is more useful for some subjects - and can use cheaper EF-S lenses.
05-01-2015, 12:04 PM   #51
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QuoteOriginally posted by Vihmameister;3240150[COLOR=Silver:
[/COLOR]

Im am not seeking way around physics. But, look then Sony sensor perfomance against Canon and Nikon. Sony have FF sensor available. Same or similar behavior and flaws as K3 have. And if only that matters, 645z should do extremely well, but this is not case- not in ISO, not in details clarity -same test charts. I mean - 645 has noise a lot of it on higher iso.
The Nikon FF cameras are using Sony sensors. Also, everyone who has seen images from the 645Z has commented on how outstanding they look and little noise they have at high ISO, even compared to the best you can get from FF cameras.
05-01-2015, 12:11 PM   #52
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Short update. Just indoors experience, not technically correct maybe.
Spent in store about 1,5 hour.

handling: Both Nikon and Canon were absolutely foreign for me previously. Nikon is a bit heavier (actually quite a lot) while keeping it long on hand. With this one i know i will not held it whole 12 hour trip steadily by hand. At some point mono or tripod is needed.
Both have quite intuitive menus.
First i got menus by my like in nikon faster, but as i learned 6D upper buttons and bigger and more comfortable back wheel, only thing to accomodate was shutter release and upper/front dial simultaneous usage. Took some 5 minutes for accommodation. There after canon felt like something i knew already on basic functions.
manual focusing is a bit easier for me- or more pentaxlike also on Canon. Nikon menus are not bad either, but focusing by "white dot" on lower left without (maybe i just didn't found that sound confirmation yet) sound FL confirmation was a bit more complex.

Nikon's viewfinder is subjectively brighter and a bit wider. But both do well. Nikon has 51 dots, 6d 11. Should be learning curve just on both, on nikon bit longer.

Just indoor focus accuracy on hand-held - about same. I missed more on nicon, partially as canon was more comfortable to hold. (subjective again).
Lens quality i asked to have in same weight category, both constant F4.
On both cameras lenses are sharp almost equal, and 100% crop is without any major CA or blur on center. No back or front focus.

ISO Canon goes without any problem up to 6400 and 12800 is not bad either, didn't go further, not using such values outdoors.
Pentax K3 struggled with anything up from ISO 640-800 with same light and room conditions, and become unusable from 1600 ISO, massive noise 3200 and 6400.
Nikon goes quite well to 3200 ISO, is still usable at 6400, but light noise is remarkable from 1250 upwards and get worse as ISO rises.
In image sharpness and quality (all shots done at finest RAW+Jpg or best Jpg by camera settings), i can not tell clear winner. Canons sweet spot looks like somewhere from 35-70 mm. Nikon does a bit better from 24 mm than canon, but here are already glass differences maybe. Overall picture quality is similar looked by eye. Canon was for me more comfortable (i liked many dials how they function)

So i still have to look these lenses in comparisons, but one is clear - my sigma sucks.
It hardly allows magnification from 25-30% @ f4 -5,6. It is quite usable at F8-11. But none of 100% crop from any aperture is not good to use it and this is one part were my K3 pictures fail - while looking heavily over-detailed environment like rampant in the downtime.
So, partially it may be fixable by limiteds, but... we will see.

With those lenses Nikon and Canon will be equaly expensive - about 2800 EUR's here. But as my Pentax line next gap to fill choice is new F'DA 70-200 @2.8 with 2500 EUR's i see no big difference.
05-01-2015, 12:15 PM   #53
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The high ISO noise of the K-3 cleans up very easily in post-processing. If you are a jpeg only shooter then you may not be happy with the K-3 output. But it is possible to get tack sharp photos with a K-3.

05-01-2015, 12:36 PM   #54
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if so - it has to be image processing - both RAW and other improvisation. On nikon Sensor Manufacturer: Sony IMX128AQP
on sony HD CMOS image sensor, whose output is handled by the latest version of the company's proprietary Bionz image processing engine, no model told at quick search.
So, maybe sony, even next canon is rumored to go out with sony sensor, but not same model perhaps and for sure not same image processing engine.

---------- Post added 05-01-15 at 10:38 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by jbinpg Quote
The high ISO noise of the K-3 cleans up very easily in post-processing. If you are a jpeg only shooter then you may not be happy with the K-3 output. But it is possible to get tack sharp photos with a K-3.
this post showed only one thing - you post before you actually read, or if you read, you do not pay attention to what is written.
05-01-2015, 12:44 PM   #55
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QuoteOriginally posted by Vihmameister Quote

...So, partially it may be fixable by limiteds, but... we will see.

With those lenses Nikon and Canon will be equaly expensive - about 2800 EUR's here. But as my Pentax line next gap to fill choice is new F'DA 70-200 @2.8 with 2500 EUR's i see no big difference...
Have you thought about the Tamron version? It's way cheaper and a wonderful piece of glass.
05-01-2015, 02:04 PM   #56
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A little odd. There is a little over a stop difference between the K3 and (for instance) a D750 with regard to high iso performance. That is to say, you will get about the same noise at iso 3200 on the K3 as you would get with a iso 6400 with a D750. People who see more improvement seem to be over stating the case. There is another thread comparing the D750 to the K3 and there is a difference without a doubt, but it isn't as much as some say.
05-01-2015, 02:20 PM   #57
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D750 and K-3 pixel peeping..... you can see a difference? Really? How hard do you have to look? People really shouldn't go on so much... some of us do check these things out... we don't just take your word for it.

05-01-2015, 02:46 PM   #58
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
D750 and K-3 pixel peeping..... you can see a difference? Really? How hard do you have to look? People really shouldn't go on so much... some of us do check these things out... we don't just take your word for it.
Knowing Normhead i could bet that left is the D750, right is the K3.
05-01-2015, 02:53 PM   #59
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QuoteOriginally posted by aurele Quote
Knowing Normhead i could bet that left is the D750, right is the K3.
I was wondering which one is which; the image on the right looks a lot sharper.
05-01-2015, 03:31 PM   #60
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QuoteOriginally posted by Vihmameister Quote
if so - it has to be image processing - both RAW and other improvisation. On nikon Sensor Manufacturer: Sony IMX128AQP
on sony HD CMOS image sensor, whose output is handled by the latest version of the company's proprietary Bionz image processing engine, no model told at quick search.
So, maybe sony, even next canon is rumored to go out with sony sensor, but not same model perhaps and for sure not same image processing engine.

---------- Post added 05-01-15 at 10:38 PM ----------



this post showed only one thing - you post before you actually read, or if you read, you do not pay attention to what is written.
I did read your long rambling post. And nowhere in there did you mention whether you are a jpeg or raw shooter.
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