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01-03-2014, 05:39 AM   #46
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raws on tripod

Please could You share Raws from both cameras, taken on tripod with mirror luckup at optimal aperture?
thanks

01-03-2014, 09:04 AM - 1 Like   #47
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Please note that the Pentax K-3 was rented for just 3 days over Christmas and has been returned to LensRentals as of last week. So I won't be able to do any more on-demand comparisons. However, I did shoot a handful test images on tripod (but not with mirror up as the speed was sufficient). I will post those later as I get my notes together for my future article comparing these two systems. I will state that I wasn't particularly interested in tripod usage in the comparison because if the system couldn't deliver decent images handheld in good light then I wasn't going to be interested in adding it to my travel kit. I can mention here that a quick look at the tripod test shots shows the same pattern: the K-3 + 60-250mm was able to deliver comparable images of the same scene shot with the D800 + AF-S 80-400mm.
01-03-2014, 10:59 AM   #48
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Michael, I'm always fascinated by the background, in stories and photos.

What is the monument behind the trees? It looks like a war memorial of some kind.
01-03-2014, 11:15 AM   #49
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QuoteOriginally posted by Gray Quote
MWhat is the monument behind the trees? It looks like a war memorial of some kind.
That would be Gettysburg...

01-03-2014, 11:20 AM   #50
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This is the second thread comparing a K camera to a D800 and finding the results comparable. The last guy had a K-01. There might be a message here. The last guy said, the D800 had more detail, but in many parts of the picture, the K-01 image looked better. What the resolution freaks on the forum have been telling you just isn't true. High resolution applied to fabric etc may give you a better image, when looking at large scale prints. Out in the rest of the world, it would seem to be a six of one, half dozen of the other. The detail can actually look worse.

Let the cruxifiction begin.....
01-03-2014, 11:28 AM - 1 Like   #51
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I have shot extensively the D7100 vs D800 and I can flat out tell you from experience the images produced on the D800 are noticeably better than the D7100 (using the same lens). OTOH, if I put a killer lens on the D7100 and then put an ordinary lens on the D800 the less-capable camera suddenly can compete and in some cases surpass the D800. It has nothing to do with pixels. It has to do with SYSTEMS of which the sensor and the lens are just two key parts. In my case, I believe the Nikkor AF-S 80-400mm to be a less capable lens than the Pentax 60-250mm which would explain in my system comparison how the K-3 was "comparable". It has to be noted that the K-3 sensor by itself is *NOT* comparable to the D800. But as a system with the absolute best lens attached the K-3 can indeed produce similar IQ. Another lens that I expect to produce similar results will be the forthcoming Sigma 18-35mm f/1.8. Crop sensor cameras suddenly have a lot of high-quality glass to choose from.

M
01-03-2014, 11:45 AM   #52
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QuoteOriginally posted by MJSfoto1956 Quote
I have shot extensively the D7100 vs D800 and I can flat out tell you from experience the images produced on the D800 are noticeably better than the D7100 (using the same lens). OTOH, if I put a killer lens on the D7100 and then put an ordinary lens on the D800 the less-capable camera suddenly can compete and in some cases surpass the D800. It has nothing to do with pixels. It has to do with SYSTEMS of which the sensor and the lens are just two key parts. In my case, I believe the Nikkor AF-S 80-400mm to be a less capable lens than the Pentax 60-250mm which would explain in my system comparison how the K-3 was "comparable". It has to be noted that the K-3 sensor by itself is *NOT* comparable to the D800. But as a system with the absolute best lens attached the K-3 can indeed produce similar IQ. Another lens that I expect to produce similar results will be the forthcoming Sigma 18-35mm f/1.8. Crop sensor cameras suddenly have a lot of high-quality glass to choose from.

M
Any chance you confirmed your opinion with a few 3rd party, blind evaluators. I know lots of folks that have been shocked by the opinions of other people, thinking their own evaluation was in some way typical. The K-01 guy actually had his wife help with the evaluation. So, while I do value your opinion, I know of many cases where folks who know what they are evaluating, bias their opinion in favour of the one they think they prefer. In a D7100, D800 evaluation, it would be easy to do that, by evaluating on detail, instead of evaluating on the effect of the whole picture.

Personally I put someone like yourself in their opinion ahead of someone like myself, although I've had minimal experience with a comparison of a D800 with the 14-24, and though it wasn't unbiased probably, I preferred my K-5 images taken with the Sigma 8-16. But I put someone who has used a third party who doesn't give a crap what camera was used and just picking between two images, more credibility, and if there are 5 or 10 of them, that's even better.. My K-5 definitely had less detail than the D800, but the detail was distracting. Kind of like smooth bokeh compared to busy bokeh. Busy bokeh has more detail, but smooth bokeh is what people pay for. The Sigma 8-16 produced the more enjoyable and in my opinion, more saleable image.
01-03-2014, 12:04 PM   #53
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QuoteOriginally posted by MJSfoto1956 Quote
That would be Gettysburg...
Heavy! Thanks.

01-03-2014, 12:42 PM - 1 Like   #54
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My goal is to make 20"x30" prints and primarily bias the evaluation based on the final prints not the digital files. Too many people see whatever they want when they pixel peep (after all, how many angels can you see dancing on the head of a pin?). Once printed I can then ask others to do a blind vote. Not that it really matters to me. I wasn't looking for a confirmation that X was better than Y. I only wanted to see if I could add a long tele to my travel kit without excessive weight and bulk while keeping the overall quality consistent with my current set of D800 lenses. So far in my quick analysis, adding a Pentax K-3 + 60-250mm is making more sense for MY purposes than considering what Nikon offers in the same range. Others will come to different conclusions and that is fine by me for we all have our own unique needs.(and budgets)
01-03-2014, 02:25 PM   #55
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Thanks for sharing. Obviously the D800 is a good camera, as is the K3. As you say, the question is which works best for the situations you are shooting in. The 60-250 is an awfully nice lens and that combined with the polish of the K3 makes for a very nice set up.
01-03-2014, 03:38 PM   #56
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links to tripod test images

Well, I decided to jump the gun a bit and post links to two tripod-mounted comparison shots I took with the Pentax K-3 + 60-250mm vs. Nikon D800 + AF-S 80-400mm. Even though this was a heavy Manfroto tripod and studio head, the lenses did not quite align (in particular the Nikon definitely sags a bit more than the Pentax). Additionally, it was a total guess as to what equivalent focal lengths were so I eyeballed it as best I could with the result that the two images are not "pixel perfect" in terms of alignment. Not a concern for me but may drive some people on this list crazy.

Observations: the Pentax is focused just a slight bit further behind and to the left where the Nikon focused. Additionally, as expected the Pentax exhibits much greater depth of field at the same aperture and thus more of the background is in focus (maybe a good thing or maybe a bad thing depending upon where you are coming from). My other observation is that it appears to me that the Pentax is just a tiny bit sharper on the edges than the Nikkor while the Nikkor is a tiny bit sharper in the center (others may come to different conclusions). Anyway, here are the links. Enjoy.
  1. http://www.haywood-sullivan.com/MAGNAchrom/articleimages/IMGP1418_9000_DxO.layers.jpg
  2. http://www.haywood-sullivan.com/MAGNAchrom/articleimages/_D8A7323_9000_DxO.layers.jpg

Conclusion: While one can "pixel peep" to see whatever you want, it is my opinion that there no appreciable difference than the handheld tests: i.e. this particular Pentax combination is very competitive with the corresponding Nikon combination and delivers 20"x30" prints of essentially equal quality.
01-03-2014, 07:10 PM   #57
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QuoteOriginally posted by MJSfoto1956 Quote
I believe the Nikkor AF-S 80-400mm to be a less capable lens than the Pentax 60-250mm which would explain in my system comparison how the K-3 was "comparable".
Yep. I was wondering why you compared those particular lenses as well, but given your intended use for travel, it makes sense. Generally, the bigger range on a zoom, the worse quality it has and the D800 sensor is extremely sensitive to good lenses and technique.
That said, I'm surprised you got such good results w/ the 60-250 at f/4. I normally have to stop it down a little to get good sharpness from it...
01-03-2014, 09:21 PM   #58
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QuoteOriginally posted by MJSfoto1956 Quote
Well, I decided to jump the gun a bit and post links to two tripod-mounted comparison shots I took with the Pentax K-3 + 60-250mm vs. Nikon D800 + AF-S 80-400mm. Even though this was a heavy Manfroto tripod and studio head, the lenses did not quite align (in particular the Nikon definitely sags a bit more than the Pentax). Additionally, it was a total guess as to what equivalent focal lengths were so I eyeballed it as best I could with the result that the two images are not "pixel perfect" in terms of alignment. Not a concern for me but may drive some people on this list crazy.

Observations: the Pentax is focused just a slight bit further behind and to the left where the Nikon focused. Additionally, as expected the Pentax exhibits much greater depth of field at the same aperture and thus more of the background is in focus (maybe a good thing or maybe a bad thing depending upon where you are coming from). My other observation is that it appears to me that the Pentax is just a tiny bit sharper on the edges than the Nikkor while the Nikkor is a tiny bit sharper in the center (others may come to different conclusions). Anyway, here are the links. Enjoy.
  1. http://www.haywood-sullivan.com/MAGNAchrom/articleimages/IMGP1418_9000_DxO.layers.jpg
  2. http://www.haywood-sullivan.com/MAGNAchrom/articleimages/_D8A7323_9000_DxO.layers.jpg

Conclusion: While one can "pixel peep" to see whatever you want, it is my opinion that there no appreciable difference than the handheld tests: i.e. this particular Pentax combination is very competitive with the corresponding Nikon combination and delivers 20"x30" prints of essentially equal quality.
The Nikon shot has camera shake/motion blur/ or whatever you want to call it. The k-3/DA*60-250 combo is definitely winning in these two shots.
01-03-2014, 09:26 PM   #59
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Discounting the angular size differential between the sensors the higher pixel pitch of the K-3 should make it record more blur due to the extra magnification at 100%.
01-03-2014, 09:41 PM - 1 Like   #60
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QuoteOriginally posted by MJSfoto1956 Quote
Just to be sure: My D800 definitely has a better, more capable sensor than the K-3. But I'm less concerned with the sensor as I am with the total system: i.e. a particular lens + sensor combination. In my case the only choices that Nikon offers its customers to reach 400mm are either the $7000 200-400mm or the $2700 80-400mm. For travel purposes, I find both lenses to be excessively bulky and heavy (not to mention expensive). What I was curious was to see if the K-3 + 60-250mm could "compete" with a comparable setup using the Nikon D800. And I am satisfied that for TELE purposes, the K-3 + 60-250mm combination is quite capable. For wide angle, the Nikon D800 still reigns supreme. For example, I will continue to use my D800 with the Nikkor 14-24mm. From my tests, there is no other camera in the world that can match it.

But for tele/travel purposes, after having done this quick test I'm leaning towards adding the Pentax K-3 + 60-250mm to my kit. I might even try the new Sigma 18-35mm f/1.8 on it when it becomes available later this year.

What is patently clear to me is that Nikon has dropped the ball. I've been waiting for years for the arrival of the D400 as a backup camera for my D800 to no avail. How could I have guessed that Pentax would deliver just the kind of camera I was waiting for? Good for Pentax. Bad for Nikon.

M
I made this exact same choice for the exact same reasons, I went with the Da* 300, but I too will get the sigma when it ships.
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