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01-05-2014, 02:54 AM   #1
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Help with Metz 52 AF-1 and K-3

Hi Guys,

I recently purchased a Metz 52 AF-1 flash for my K-3 to upgrade my old Bell & Howell unit which didn't play so nicely however I'm having some issues. I went out shooting last night with a friend to do some long exposure flash portraits and found some possible shortfalls with the flash. Firstly if I shoot in Aperture priority with the flash the shutter speed never changes - it always fixes itself at either 1/90 for 2nd curtain sync or 1/180 for 1st curtain. With my old flash I could only shoot in M mode but I figured with the new flash I could shoot in Av. Interestingly I use a Tamron 17-50 f/2.8 lens and when I switched to an old Pentax 18-55 kit lens the shutter speed did change so is this just that my Tamron lens doesn't support TTL??

What do you guys do in this case? just shoot in Manual?

Secondly when using the flash off camera as a slave and using the built-in flash to fire the Metz I can't seem to use 2nd curtain sync? Instead it just fires the flash at the beginning like a first curtain despite setting the sync correctly on the flash. Is this a known limit of the flash? Or have I missed something here? Quite annoying really.

Also my mate has a D600 and he has a setting on his body to adjust the flash sync speed, I can't seem to find anything like this on the K-3 - is it possible to change the sync speed?

I'll have another play today and see what I can find out.

Any help appreciated.

Cheers

Alex

01-05-2014, 07:45 AM   #2
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QuoteOriginally posted by sharepointalex Quote
Hi Guys,

I recently purchased a Metz 52 AF-1 flash for my K-3 to upgrade my old Bell & Howell unit which didn't play so nicely however I'm having some issues. I went out shooting last night with a friend to do some long exposure flash portraits and found some possible shortfalls with the flash. Firstly if I shoot in Aperture priority with the flash the shutter speed never changes - it always fixes itself at either 1/90 for 2nd curtain sync or 1/180 for 1st curtain. With my old flash I could only shoot in M mode but I figured with the new flash I could shoot in Av. Interestingly I use a Tamron 17-50 f/2.8 lens and when I switched to an old Pentax 18-55 kit lens the shutter speed did change so is this just that my Tamron lens doesn't support TTL??

What do you guys do in this case? just shoot in Manual?
Not sure what your trying to achieve, in AV the camera will try and balance ambient with flash so will use a shutter speed based on focal length of lens in use.
Tamron lens do not appear to implenet PK properly so I don;t think distance data is given to the camera so you will get P-ttl but it won;t bahve quite the same as Pentax or Sigma lens.

QuoteOriginally posted by sharepointalex Quote
Secondly when using the flash off camera as a slave and using the built-in flash to fire the Metz I can't seem to use 2nd curtain sync? Instead it just fires the flash at the beginning like a first curtain despite setting the sync correctly on the flash. Is this a known limit of the flash? Or have I missed something here? Quite annoying really.
Again what you trying to achieve , You;ve set the slave to obey the body then made changes to the slave.?
The slave needs to be slave mode.
How the flashes fire is controled from the master/controler be that body or on-body flash.
QuoteOriginally posted by sharepointalex Quote
Also my mate has a D600 and he has a setting on his body to adjust the flash sync speed, I can't seem to find anything like this on the K-3 - is it possible to change the sync speed?

I'll have another play today and see what I can find out.

Any help appreciated.

Cheers

Alex
You can sync at any speed you like upto 1/180 and if you use 1/8000
Unless you mixing ambient/flash why do you want to alter sync speed flash will controll exposure and freeze subject.

Use EC to adjust exposure balance
Use X sync to ensure flash use only
Use AV to control aperture during exposure
Use Tv to control shutter (hence sync)
Don't forget to lock ISO else the camera will raise ISO to get a balanced exposure
01-05-2014, 08:22 AM   #3
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Please do not double post. It can be very confusing.

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/125-flashes-lighting-studio/247520-help-m...-1-please.html
01-05-2014, 02:01 PM   #4
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I use it with K-5 and have not found any problems. If you use X mode than the SS is always /180 but the flash setting is PTTL. If you use A mode, for example, use HSS PTTL flash setting - depending on the light condition the SS may go automatically up or down but I think not less than a certain value. Of course, check if the zoom in the flash is detected properly. If you do it off the camera then, in salve mode, check the zoom again and adjust manually as I found it tricky and thought that the zoom or focal length refers to FX not DX. Recently I have used that flash in servo mode with D7100 and it worked well as a background flood light (highkey).
Here is the link to a sample I have done with that flash as a slave and bounced https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/115-pentax-k-5/218370-k5-metz-52-a.html

Cheers,

01-06-2014, 03:42 AM   #5
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QuoteOriginally posted by awaldram Quote
Not sure what your trying to achieve, in AV the camera will try and balance ambient with flash so will use a shutter speed based on focal length of lens in use.
Tamron lens do not appear to implenet PK properly so I don;t think distance data is given to the camera so you will get P-ttl but it won;t bahve quite the same as Pentax or Sigma lens.


Again what you trying to achieve , You;ve set the slave to obey the body then made changes to the slave.?
The slave needs to be slave mode.
How the flashes fire is controled from the master/controler be that body or on-body flash.

You can sync at any speed you like upto 1/180 and if you use 1/8000
Unless you mixing ambient/flash why do you want to alter sync speed flash will controll exposure and freeze subject.

Use EC to adjust exposure balance
Use X sync to ensure flash use only
Use AV to control aperture during exposure
Use Tv to control shutter (hence sync)
Don't forget to lock ISO else the camera will raise ISO to get a balanced exposure
Thanks for the reply - this is helpful. Seems that it's a limitation of the Tamron lens then that the camera won't adjust SS in Av mode using the flash. I guess i'll just use one the other modes - I used Manual with my last flash so that should work fine I guess.

As for the 2nd curtain issue in slave mode I understand what you mean but this should work? I should be able to set the flash to fire from the body but only on the 2nd curtain? This works fine when the flash is mounted on the camera but when it's wireless it just fires in 1st curtain mode. I can't set the camera flash to rear curtain because this then doesn't fire the slave flash. Any ideas?

My mate with his D600 can set his body flash as controller and set 2nd curtain on the flash and it just works! I'm sure this should work with my combination - going to e-mail Metz and ask.

Cheers

Alex
01-06-2014, 05:40 AM   #6
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QuoteOriginally posted by sharepointalex Quote
Seems that it's a limitation of the Tamron lens then that the camera won't adjust SS in Av mode using the flash.
It is the first time that I'm hearing about Tamron lenses not being fully compatible.
To be honest, I think this information is wrong.

Note that in Av mode the camera tries to be "smart" and will attempt to prevent image blur from the ambient light. The shutter speed is set so that you should get a blur free image. From the manual (K-5 II & K100D):
"The slowest shutter speed depends on the focal length of the lens in use."
Try changing the focal length on your Tamron and see whether that influences the shutter speed.

My Tamron 18-250 reports focal length to the camera and the shutter speed changes accordingly when the pop-up flash is activated.

If I were you, I'd continue manual mode for flash photography. Then you know what is going on and don't have to second guess what the camera and flash in combination are trying to accomplish for you.

QuoteOriginally posted by sharepointalex Quote
As for the 2nd curtain issue in slave mode I understand what you mean but this should work? I
I think you are out of luck here. Pentax regards second curtain sync as a flash feature and you need to activate that in the external flash rather than the camera.

I don't know why the protocol over the hot-shoe enables second curtain sync while the wireless (optical) protocol does not, but unfortunately I'm unable to trigger my external Metz 58 AF-2 with the pop-up flash set to second curtain sync either. All other flash settings work.

P.S.: I'm looking forward to the announced new Cactus V6 which will allow remote control of the power using the transceiver on the camera. This will make flash photography with a Pentax camera a lot easier.

Last edited by Class A; 01-06-2014 at 06:00 AM.
01-06-2014, 05:58 AM   #7
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Thanks Class A - I have tried changing the focal length of my Tarmon and this affects the shutter speed but not when the external flash is attached or set to wireless :-(

Is it worth e-mailing Tamron? I'd like to get a confirmed answer of why this isn't possible. Anyhow i'll continue in M mode for now which makes more sense and it's what I always used. I was just curious why the D600 could do it and not the K-3.

As for the second curtain issue that's a real shame however would I be able to get around this by using some wireless triggers? I'd like someone who has this setup and some triggers to confirm if possible. Because if that's the case then I'm planning on getting some triggers anyhow so I don't mind doing that.

Will look at the Cactus V6 now.

Cheers

Alex
01-06-2014, 06:11 AM   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by sharepointalex Quote
As for the second curtain issue that's a real shame however would I be able to get around this by using some wireless triggers?
Unfortunately not.

Most triggers for Pentax just transmit one simple "fire" signal. The V6 will be able to remote control the power of an also to be released new Cactus flash model.

The most comprehensive information communicated by radio triggers on a Pentax camera is that of the optical protocol. There are Aokatec triggers which transform the optical signals into radio signals and then back again. They are thus suitable to extend the reach of the optical "wireless" system, but they do not remove any of its limitations.

01-06-2014, 09:52 AM   #9
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
Unfortunately not.

Most triggers for Pentax just transmit one simple "fire" signal. The V6 will be able to remote control the power of an also to be released new Cactus flash model.

The most comprehensive information communicated by radio triggers on a Pentax camera is that of the optical protocol. There are Aokatec triggers which transform the optical signals into radio signals and then back again. They are thus suitable to extend the reach of the optical "wireless" system, but they do not remove any of its limitations.
Oh dear that is a real shame. Would a genuine Pentax flash have this functionality? I've just got an e-mail from Intro 2020 (UK importers of Metz) who have reached out to Metz Germany for an answer.

Cheers

Alex
01-06-2014, 01:20 PM   #10
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Just checked

Though you can set 2nd curtain on the body external flash it switches to first curtain as soon as you select Master/controler
The external slave does not acknowledge being set to 2nd curtain.

this is fgz540 fgz360's and metz 50's and 48's in various combinations.

My comments on Tamron are based on experience not fact, as you noticed zooming a Tamron makes no affect on shutter speed as it surely should if a consistent flash exposure is to be maintained, Yet with Sigma and Pentax lens it does.

Now to me that seems pretty cut and dried some data from a Tarmon is not present (else it would behave just as SIgma and Pentax does).

Maybe 2020 can come with some logical explanation.?
01-07-2014, 05:49 AM   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by sharepointalex Quote
Would a genuine Pentax flash have this functionality?
No, unfortunately not.

QuoteOriginally posted by awaldram Quote
My comments on Tamron are based on experience not fact, as you noticed zooming a Tamron makes no affect on shutter speed as it surely should if a consistent flash exposure is to be maintained, Yet with Sigma and Pentax lens it does.
As I wrote before, the shutter speed changes on my K-5II according to the zoom level on my Tamron 18-250.
So at the very least not all Tamron lenses are affected.


QuoteOriginally posted by awaldram Quote
Now to me that seems pretty cut and dried some data from a Tarmon is not present (else it would behave just as SIgma and Pentax does).
Do you not see focal length information in the EXIF data for your Tamron lens?

With Lightroom, PhotoMe, ExifTool, etc. you could check the focal length recorded. It should change according to the zoom setting. It would be a big surprise to me if it didn't. It surely does for my Tamron 18-250.
01-07-2014, 07:42 AM   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
No, unfortunately not.


As I wrote before, the shutter speed changes on my K-5II according to the zoom level on my Tamron 18-250.
So at the very least not all Tamron lenses are affected.



Do you not see focal length information in the EXIF data for your Tamron lens?

With Lightroom, PhotoMe, ExifTool, etc. you could check the focal length recorded. It should change according to the zoom setting. It would be a big surprise to me if it didn't. It surely does for my Tamron 18-250.
Thanks guys - I'll check the focal length with Lightroom but i'm sure it gets recorded. Thinking about it I haven't tested the flash with my 70-200 zoom, only with my 17-50 and the shutter speed doesn't change when the flash is attached despite zooming. Will try with the zoom and report back. Although the zoom is a Sigma so that might perform differently anyway.

No matter what I do it seems the shutter speed just doesn't change with this Tamron lens. I'm really hoping Metz have some answers :-(
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