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02-27-2014, 01:17 AM   #166
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QuoteOriginally posted by fuent104 Quote
I don't think it's accurate to call it hype
sorry, i didn't want to sound condescending.
I agree with you that a dslr opens a different style of shooting than a camcorder. I use them myself..
I just wonder where the market will go. As time goes by, other attractive options may come at more affordable price.
I hope :-)

02-27-2014, 03:43 AM   #167
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QuoteOriginally posted by kadajawi Quote
Is it? Cause what I have seen from the 2012 top of the line consumer camcorder from Panasonic was fairly terrible. Poor dynamic range, strange colors (as if individual channels clipped), very sharp (oversharpened) picture with everything in focus, noise reduction in anything but bright sun light, poor low light performance. The shake reduction works extremely well, but looks very artificial. It certainly is more convenient to use, but apart from that? I'll take my K-5 over it any day. It doesn't look anywhere near as video as the Panasonic.
FWIW, I originally selected an M41 as an inexpensive camcorder solution for my style of video shooting. I don't make 'films' and in fact, I personally dislike the so-called film look (24fps). I fully understand the depth of field issue. Again, it is of no interest to me. The M41 has a native 2K pixel wide sensor of reasonable size and it performs respectably well in low light.
02-27-2014, 04:51 AM - 1 Like   #168
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QuoteOriginally posted by CDW Quote
FWIW, I originally selected an M41 as an inexpensive camcorder solution for my style of video shooting. I don't make 'films' and in fact, I personally dislike the so-called film look (24fps). I fully understand the depth of field issue. Again, it is of no interest to me. The M41 has a native 2K pixel wide sensor of reasonable size and it performs respectably well in low light.
Cameras such as the 5D or the K-5 don't take videos that are meant to be pleasant out of the box, they are also not meant to do all the work for the owner. It is more for the serious filmmaker, who will grade the video anyway, who will sharpen himself exactly as much as is needed for each shot, who focuses himself or has an assistant for that. Who wants control over the picture.

If the 5D is so crappy vs your camcorder, why do they shoot big TV shows like House MD on one? Or even use it for Avengers? And not your camcorder?

It's like a good point & shoot camera vs a DSLR. The P&S might produce the more pleasant shot out of the box, still we use the much more expensive DSLR instead, right?
02-27-2014, 05:16 AM   #169
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Fuent : Two thumbs up on the Black Roses clip, me likey

02-27-2014, 06:34 AM   #170
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QuoteOriginally posted by kadajawi Quote
Cameras such as the 5D or the K-5 don't take videos that are meant to be pleasant out of the box, they are also not meant to do all the work for the owner. It is more for the serious filmmaker, who will grade the video anyway, who will sharpen himself exactly as much as is needed for each shot, who focuses himself or has an assistant for that. Who wants control over the picture.

If the 5D is so crappy vs your camcorder, why do they shoot big TV shows like House MD on one? Or even use it for Avengers? And not your camcorder?

It's like a good point & shoot camera vs a DSLR. The P&S might produce the more pleasant shot out of the box, still we use the much more expensive DSLR instead, right?
If you re-read my post, you'll see that I chose the M41 for my purposes. I don't care about 24fps or depth of field for my purpose. Certainly the video out of a 5D can look good with the skills of editors and tens of thousands of dollars in post processing hardware and software to massage the files. And for what it's worth, I did a week long trek in the dunes of Lencois Maranhenses last July. Between my K5 and M41 I shot almost three hours of video. A video production company asked to license 3-4 minutes of clips for a documentary they are producing. They chose the M41 clips.
02-27-2014, 07:13 AM   #171
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Yes, and that's fine and good, and there's nothing wrong with the M41 (sounds like a gun...). It's just that other may care about depth of field, about 24 fps, and they need video they can massage any way they want. If you need a different look than what the M41 gives you, you might be screwed (judging by other consumer camcorders that I have seen, I haven't seen M41 footage).

Anyway, I'd be curious to see your work, your footage. I'm heading over to YouTube/Vimeo now...

@PiDicus Rex: I totally agree. I like it too. Even the music was acceptable.
02-27-2014, 07:29 AM   #172
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QuoteOriginally posted by kadajawi Quote
Yes, and that's fine and good, and there's nothing wrong with the M41 (sounds like a gun...). It's just that other may care about depth of field, about 24 fps, and they need video they can massage any way they want. If you need a different look than what the M41 gives you, you might be screwed (judging by other consumer camcorders that I have seen, I haven't seen M41 footage).

Anyway, I'd be curious to see your work, your footage. I'm heading over to YouTube/Vimeo now...

@PiDicus Rex: I totally agree. I like it too. Even the music was acceptable.
I don't disagree and I'm not trying to suggest my needs are universally applicable to others. In any event, with 4K literally here in terms of capture and display hardware, and production companies starting to archive in 4K, the discussion will shift along with hardware needs. Canon, Nikon, Pentax, Panasonic, others, will all have up their game to compete in that arena. 1080P is basically old news at this point.
02-27-2014, 07:47 AM   #173
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QuoteOriginally posted by CDW Quote
I don't disagree and I'm not trying to suggest my needs are universally applicable to others. In any event, with 4K literally here in terms of capture and display hardware, and production companies starting to archive in 4K, the discussion will shift along with hardware needs. Canon, Nikon, Pentax, Panasonic, others, will all have up their game to compete in that arena. 1080P is basically old news at this point.
Then we can agree. Different needs, different cameras. Really, DSLRs are nothing for consumers in terms of video, unless they have masochistic tendencies. Which I hope at some point Pentax will realize... and stop dumbing down the camera.

As for 4K... that puts a massive strain on... well, everything, so much so that AFAIK even until not too long ago Hollywood didn't use 4K. They used it to capture, but not to edit, cut, post process, do CGI, ... that was all done 2K. However this year or next year cameras should have it, though I'd prefer better 1080p.

02-27-2014, 02:22 PM   #174
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Very few consumer TV's have 4K resolution panels. Many don't even have true 1080p panels, 1080p is not old news by any stretch.
I can't afford to upgrade my PC to handle playing of 4K video streams (at native res) let alone editing them!
I can't seen Pentax ever competing in the 4K space. It's just not sensible for the average person to need 4k.
02-27-2014, 06:27 PM   #175
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QuoteOriginally posted by Steve.Ledger Quote
Very few consumer TV's have 4K resolution panels. Many don't even have true 1080p panels, 1080p is not old news by any stretch.
I can't afford to upgrade my PC to handle playing of 4K video streams (at native res) let alone editing them!
I can't seen Pentax ever competing in the 4K space. It's just not sensible for the average person to need 4k.
That will all change and very quickly. Within the next 3-4 years most sets over 50" screen size will be 4K capable. And anyone who has seen a high quality 4K demo will tell you the difference between 1080 and 3840 is huge when viewed on a larger display.

1080 is old news in the sense that major content providers are in the planning stage or are already archiving in 4K format, even though the material is being downsized to 1080 for current consumption. With smart phones now coming out 4K capable, it's a buzzword, that needed or not, will make inroads.

You may not be able to afford 4K now but the early adopters will create the market so that one day you will.

Last edited by CDW; 02-27-2014 at 06:28 PM. Reason: correction.
02-27-2014, 06:41 PM   #176
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QuoteOriginally posted by CDW Quote
And anyone who has seen a high quality 4K demo will tell you the difference between 1080 and 3840 is huge
I think you mean 1080 v 2160. 3840 is the long edge of consumer 4K.

1080p has a lot of life left in it yet.
Early adopters and the hype atm will fund R&D for sure and one day it will become standard I agree, but not for some years yet. Ultra HD will be work-in-progress for quite sometime.
I haven't read much about the GH4, but I bet there's going to be a few caveats.

Last edited by Steve.Ledger; 02-27-2014 at 06:52 PM.
02-27-2014, 07:12 PM   #177
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QuoteOriginally posted by Steve.Ledger Quote
I think you mean 1080 v 2160. 3840 is the long edge of consumer 4K.

1080p has a lot of life left in it yet.
Early adopters and the hype atm will fund R&D for sure and one day it will become standard I agree, but not for some years yet. Ultra HD will be work-in-progress for quite sometime.
I haven't read much about the GH4, but I bet there's going to be a few caveats.
Thanks, you're correct.

1080p has a lot of life, just as 480 SD continues to be used commercially. Premium services will likely be the first to migrate to 4K.

Here's a link to the Panasonic GH4 4K demo on YouTube.

This link apparently only brings it up in 720P. If you do a search you can find it with the option of a 4K stream.

Last edited by CDW; 02-27-2014 at 07:14 PM. Reason: additional detail.
02-27-2014, 07:25 PM   #178
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QuoteOriginally posted by PiDicus Rex Quote
Fuent : Two thumbs up on the Black Roses clip, me likey

Thanks! Just to be clear, I was not the director or cinematographer. I was the gaffer, so I did the lighting, and I operated the 2nd camera for the studio material. The two cameras we used were a Canon 7D and a Canon 60D. My M85 f2 was on my camera the whole time.
02-27-2014, 08:57 PM   #179
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For the sake of it, I checked out the spec sheet of the M41 on Canon Vixia HF M41 Review - Digital Camcorders - CNET Reviews

It's top end consumer, data rate line ball with the K-01 and K3. Cmos, so rolling shutter (boo hiss ), but it's sensor is 1/3rds inch.

It would nearly keep up with my JVC GY-HD7 for sharpness, but the HD7 would get killed in low-light, though the JVC has CCD's, so no rolling shutter.

Advantage of the small sensors, is it's easier to keep focus over a deeper field, so for a lot of doco work, that'd be useful, down side is exactly same, that deep field of view makes it harder to do close-ups and interviews with softened out backgrounds. A little zoom in and step backwards can help out with that.

One of the motorsport shows I occasionally crew on uses an XA10, which is a few rungs up from the M41, for the interviews behind the pit garages, they're quite decent for PBS/C31 level broadcast, but FoxSports and BBC would say 'no'. And same same as on my K-01, with the M41 or an XA10, you have to bump up the shutter speed to minimise rolling shutter skew when tracking with racecars.

QuoteOriginally posted by kadajawi Quote
Which I hope at some point Pentax will realize... and stop dumbing down the camera.
DA !

QuoteOriginally posted by fuent104 Quote
Thanks! Just to be clear, I was not the director or cinematographer. I was the gaffer, so I did the lighting, and I operated the 2nd camera for the studio material. The two cameras we used were a Canon 7D and a Canon 60D. My M85 f2 was on my camera the whole time.
I liked the lighting too.

Heck, I light more stuff then I get to shoot..
Got a rep locally for being a techo more then a creative, trying to break that.

Once lit, I grab the K-01 or the HD7 and it's screw on fish-eye lens, and do Behind Scenes shooting, DVD extra's stuff.
Look for the MurderDrome DVD that should be hitting DVD stores in about 2 months time.

---------- Post added 28-02-14 at 03:08 PM ----------

On 4K.

I can see it being the replacement in homes for Blu-Ray, but I don't see it being picked up for broadcast (DVT or Cable) anytime soon - SD and HD ( 720x520 and 1440x1080 / rectangular pixels ) take up huge bandwidth already, 4K would eat several current channels for a single 4K channel, and broadcasters want to maximise the number of channels, and the number of places they can put ad-breaks, so maximise the income they generate.

Personally, I think HD will stay to top of DTV and Cable for a long while yet, and 4K, and then 8K, will become Digital Cinema acquisition formats, and low volume distribution.

A lot of cinema chains are still gearing up to digital projection at HD and 4K, they won't want to be paying out for 8K projectors for a long time yet.
02-28-2014, 09:16 AM   #180
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/112046005@N07/12836896084/
Same ship, different day, This time it is K-01 and Sigma 28 mm F1.8 (high speed wide angle), I opted for 24 fps in this video. Not that much difference, when compared to K-3, if any at all.
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