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03-14-2014, 06:23 PM   #271
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Verdict?
More then ever, the K3 needs clean feed HDMI, and a 'film' raw dynamic range mode.

From what I've seen so far, the sensor and the video engine does a damn good job of producing images that easily the equal of those from a 5D2 or 5D3.
At the same data rate, the quality would be indistinguishable from the much more expensive cameras.

With an external recorder, and film dynamic range, it would easily match 'broadcast' quality, or make an excellent B-Unit camera.
For higher budget 'action' projects, it would make a good 'crash cam', such as what the 5D's are used for, though I would personally be loathe to waste the K3 on that sort of job.

As a professional HD film making tool, it is a viable alternative to the 'mainstream' choices.
For anyone on a limited budget (students, Indie film makers,..) it makes a very attractive alternative, especially when one factors in the cost of secondhand lenses.

I would go so far to say, that if it could record CinemaDNG, and be promoted properly, it would challenge the established players, and would be a good B-Unit camera of films where the A-Unit is shooting on Alexa.

I want one.

03-14-2014, 08:01 PM   #272
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Yes, but even with clean HDMI, why would you chose this over a D5300? Which offers an even better picture. Or a Canon 7D, which does raw. Now if the K-3 also had SR...

Also remember those other cameras have or will probably get profiles for filmconvert.
03-14-2014, 08:32 PM   #273
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For me, the verdict is that for video the K-3 is not worth the upgrade.
03-14-2014, 08:59 PM   #274
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Steve: You've got K5II ? from that to K3 is a much different choice then for me with my K-01 and HD7.
You went the opposite way with the colours to what I did, nice I was trying to see how far I could push them before it fell apart, which is why I'm as impressed as I am.

Kadajawi: Why over the D5300? Because I have a bag full of K-mount lenses, which I can use with a ring on an EF mount, but can't use on Nikon as the Nikon has a longer Register (or Sensor to Flange) distance.
The only feature I'd want off the 7D is the ability to change the frame rate speed during playback to check 50fps looks good for SloMo at 25fps.
I want Raw, a, lot.
That said, ProRes will do with full ( "film" ) dynamic range for about 80% of what I'm doing, and I can get that from an external recorder.
SR is not a priority for me - I don't use it for video.

For me, the price of a K3 with kit lens and an Atomos Ninja will be less then either the 2.5K or 4K BMD cameras, and I can use my lenses directly instead on the K-EF ring.

Stagnant: a request if I can? Some mids and close-ups of peoples faces? At f2 to f4 ? I'd really like to see how the skin tones look.

03-14-2014, 09:13 PM   #275
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QuoteOriginally posted by PiDicus Rex Quote
Steve: You've got K5II ? from that to K3 is a much different choice then for me with my K-01 and HD7.
You went the opposite way with the colours to what I did, nice I was trying to see how far I could push them before it fell apart, which is why I'm as impressed as I am.

Kadajawi: Why over the D5300? Because I have a bag full of K-mount lenses, which I can use with a ring on an EF mount, but can't use on Nikon as the Nikon has a longer Register (or Sensor to Flange) distance.
The only feature I'd want off the 7D is the ability to change the frame rate speed during playback to check 50fps looks good for SloMo at 25fps.
I want Raw, a, lot.
That said, ProRes will do with full ( "film" ) dynamic range for about 80% of what I'm doing, and I can get that from an external recorder.
SR is not a priority for me - I don't use it for video.

For me, the price of a K3 with kit lens and an Atomos Ninja will be less then either the 2.5K or 4K BMD cameras, and I can use my lenses directly instead on the K-EF ring.

Stagnant: a request if I can? Some mids and close-ups of peoples faces? At f2 to f4 ? I'd really like to see how the skin tones look.
I think my point was that the K-3 is a nice tool for a few people, but for most who are serious about video there are better choices that cost significantly less than the K-3 or can do significantly more than the K-3. Unless they have a couple of standout features what Pentax can do AT MOST is keep Pentaxians. Since there are not so many of us around that is not good news for Pentax.

Andrew Reid shoots raw and then converts to ProRes after some basic processing in Resolve. Seems like a decent workflow to me, and you don't need an external recorder. Basically, if (planned) video were my focus, I'd probably be looking at a second hand 7D, and shooting raw. Or perhaps the Olympus OM-D E-M1.

Oh and yes, I can totally see the point of moving from the K-01 to the K-3, but from my K-5 it seems to be a downgrade, at least for what I am doing with it.
03-15-2014, 01:49 AM   #276
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QuoteOriginally posted by PiDicus Rex Quote
More then ever, the K3 needs clean feed HDMI, and a 'film' raw dynamic range mode.
I agree. Especially the latter.
And SR would be a nice one to have. it doesnt need to be perfect but at least it needs to rival my sony alpha.

I speak for myself now, but with a bunch of pentax lenses, at this moment, this is the better option for me. A cam like the D5300 seems to have other gripes as well. At least i read..
Hey, It always looks greener on the other side, untill you get there.

Right now my investment in lenses is mainly pentax, so the K3 does well for me. If pentax does not step up I will be using my pentax glass on a future nex mount video system from sony.

---------- Post added 03-15-14 at 10:28 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by PiDicus Rex Quote
Stagnant: a request if I can? Some mids and close-ups of peoples faces? At f2 to f4 ? I'd really like to see how the skin tones look.
if you want i can transfer you some original shots of my first short movie with it? plenty of skin tone.. mostly 2.8 to 3.5...


maybe best with "wetransfer"...
03-15-2014, 08:00 PM   #277
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QuoteOriginally posted by kadajawi Quote
but for most who are serious about video there are better choices that cost significantly less than the K-3 or can do significantly more than the K-3.
Y'know, it's probably worth having a discussion about what other alternatives there are.

I've used the 7D, and yes I can use my lenses on one. Ignoring raw for the moment, I don't think the image quality for the 7D, or the 550D/650D for that matter, is any better or worse then the K-01 or what I'm seeing of the K3.
The Canon's do have better low-light sensitivity, but once a scene is lit properly, that becomes far less of an advantage compared to the 2 or more extra stops dynamic range that the Pentax's are getting.
In some ad-hoc comparisons done with mates on one short film set, the same scene in a kitchen that was lit for a 7D, with the dark objects in the scene exposed correctly, the window to the shaded driveway outside was over-exposed on the 7D, but the K-01 was still able to display detail of branches and fence work outside.

My personal experience is telling me that once a scene is correctly lit, there is more range available in what the Pentax is seeing.

Side by side, if Pentax shot raw too, I'd wager there would be no comparison, and the Canons would be left behind. Nikon's superior dynamic range would give it an advantage over the Pentax products, again, if raw was available on the Nikon.
Price wise, Pentax kicks both brands butts, especially for someone like me with a penchant for buying classic second hand lenses, for which the brand cache of Canon and Nikon encourages a cost premium.

So lets move to discussing alternatives. What has similar dynamic range, better recorded quality, and is as flexible in the available Depth of Field characteristics?

I love my little HD7 - 3CCDs, no rolling shutter, great detail from it's mpeg2 codec, but limited Depth of Field due to the 1/5th inch sensor size, and only 7 or 8 stops dynamic range, and the lens is fixed.
But it's Australian RRP was $2500, compared to the $363 I paid for the K-01 body when the price crashed, or the $800+ list price.

An XL-H1s would be awesome (especially given all the kit for my XL-1 I have stored away), and can be equiped with a factory EF to XL adaptor, with crop factor similar to the BMD Pocket Camera, but if you can find someone willing to sell a H1s, they'll want around $6000 second hand, even though it only records to Hdv, on tape.
( With an external HD-SDI recorder, the H1s is one of the cheapest 'broadcast' solutions. )

For the same image quality as you get out the K-01, and as said, from what I'm seeing from the K3 files, I think the nearest competitors in the new camcorder market, are all double or more the price. Things like the Canon XA20 and the XF-100.
And at that price, you have to start looking at the BMD cameras, minus lenses.

In the same price range as the K3, sure there are some Canons, or the BMD pocket.
For me, I'm happy to work with those tools when they are provided, but I don't think they are the best choice for me now, compared to where I was 18 months ago.
I was looking at the BMD-CC, and it still appeals, but it's price with no lenses is about the same as the K3 with kit lens AND a sigma 18-35 F1.8 zoom.

Bang for Buck, the Pentax wins, and that's where Pentax can retain customers, or build new sales.

But for any Pentax staff reading this - We NEED HDMI clean feed out, And/Or RAW CinemaDNG

Last edited by PiDicus Rex; 03-15-2014 at 08:10 PM.
03-15-2014, 08:21 PM   #278
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QuoteOriginally posted by grispie Quote
if you want i can transfer you some original shots of my first short movie with it? plenty of skin tone.. mostly 2.8 to 3.5...
For fun I had a bit of a play with your video via the downloadable 720p MP4 file.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwSAsvC6B0lNa19UTW9GdnlqZ0U/edit?usp=sharing
Seemed I could push it around quite well so yes, would be nice to get a 1080p .mov file to check out if you could?

I hope I don't get too drawn in though, I can't really afford a K-3 body even if I sold the K-7 (though I do have a Fender Strat' and VOX amp to sell )

03-15-2014, 08:24 PM   #279
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QuoteOriginally posted by grispie Quote
if you want i can transfer you some original shots of my first short movie with it? plenty of skin tone.. mostly 2.8 to 3.5...
I shall watch and get back to you
03-16-2014, 02:28 AM   #280
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original mov files through dropbox
Let me know if it doesn't work... but it should.
1080p 25p muted sharpness/contrast all down

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/109488724/IMGP0747.MOV
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/109488724/IMGP0766.MOV
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/109488724/IMGP0771.MOV

---------- Post added 03-16-14 at 10:31 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Steve.Ledger Quote
I hope I don't get too drawn in though, I can't really afford a K-3 body even if I sold the K-7 (though I do have a Fender Strat' and VOX amp to sell )
this is how it starts

---------- Post added 03-16-14 at 10:32 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by PiDicus Rex Quote
I shall watch and get back to you
movie is not finished he, just a grading test..

Look forward to seeing some different gradings
03-16-2014, 04:03 AM   #281
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QuoteOriginally posted by PiDicus Rex Quote
...
Yes, I think the main draw, well, the only draw for the 7D is raw video. If it were not for that advantage it'd be uninteresting.

Are you sure second hand Nikon and Canon lenses are expensive? Cause really, IMHO Pentaxes are bought because they can be used with old lenses. That means there is quite some demand for second hand Pentax lenses, so you can spend more on a second hand vintage Pentax lens than the equivalent Canon lens would cost new (well, last time I checked I think that was the case). Also, Canon shooters seem to have some interest in Pentax glass, too, so they are snatching up those lenses as well.

Looking at video cameras isn't fair I think. They have the better codecs/encoders (it is amazing what the Panasonic X900 does with 50i 12 Mbps (!) h264. Slightly washed up perhaps, but even in detailed scenes it does not look bad after deinterlacing), but the sensors are seriously lacking. So we're looking at Canikon. Canon is great because of Magic Lantern. If it weren't for that... I'd say meeeeeh. Nikon however manages to get great image quality with the D5300. Usability wise Pentax probably wins, because the D5300 is an mid range entry level camera... something meant entirely for consumers. But what when the D7200 appears? Maybe it will have the same internals as the D5300, but with more K-3 like controls, as it is aimed at a similar market as the K-3 (maybe a bit down from there... but still, much closer). What then?

I wouldn't be surprised if Pentax engineers don't speak English... and the rest isn't in a position to decide how the cameras will be. I still imagine the marketing guy at Pentax to be sitting in a corner, bound and gagged.

I think what we really need is Pentax giving those Magic Lantern guys a phone call. Hire them. Let them work their magic on the K-3. See how far they can push the hardware. With full access to the firmware I'm sure they can come up with something good. Release an official Pentax K-3 Magic Lantern edition firmware (or perhaps even camera, with the box saying Magic Lantern, and with different lens mounts in the box so the user can swap it out). Those who care will recognize the name. The video market seems more fluid... people are much more willing to switch brands. How much would it cost to hire a couple of software engineers? It's worth it, even for the name. The company that hired the CyanogenMod mastermind got quite some press, and recently Oppo profited from having an official (optional) CyanogenMod version of their phone.

Of course what the Magic Lantern guys would hopefully do is clean HDMI and raw. Plus some usability tweaks etc.

Btw., does Edius support 10 bit h264 files?

Last edited by kadajawi; 03-16-2014 at 05:10 AM.
03-16-2014, 06:44 AM   #282
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Grispie:
Nice framing!. Not a fan of that inserted slider shot to the cross tho, it's a bit jarring compared to the timing of the rest.
Downloading the files to play with

Kadajawi:
The local market her has secondhand Canon and Nikon lenses retailing around 3 to 4 times the price of comparable K-mount glass.
I think it's a reflection of the demand from all the Pro & Indie film makers, and the students, all looking to grab whatever super-fast lenses they can get.
Because the Pentax market penetration is lower, the secondhand market can't charge as much.

I'm often suprised by the reactions of Canon and Nikon owners, some of which didn't realise Pentax cameras do video,... One mate who runs a local monthly film night offered me his collection of K-mount lenses at bargain prices because he's gone from a film Pentax to a 650D, and I'm not inclined to say no to the offer

The ML guys doing a Pentax edition.... That would be nice. Maybe hired to do it as a special edition firmware,....

QuoteOriginally posted by kadajawi Quote
Btw., does Edius support 10 bit h264 files?
The tag line for Edius is 'Edit Anything',... You set the resolution and bit depth for the project output, then import whatever you want, 8bit, 10bit, SD, HD, 4K, and drop it on to the same timeline. Edius converts it as needed on the fly during playback.
03-16-2014, 06:45 AM   #283
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Missing SR expanation.

There is an explanation in the article Ricoh/Pentax Q&A: Ricoh tech into Pentax cameras, whither full-frame, and lots more as to why hardware SR is not used in video on the K-3. Comes down to noise and battery drain of the SR mechanism.
03-16-2014, 08:05 AM   #284
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Nice find,.. About the only thing missing is the usual HDMI and CoDec questions.

I'm betting those users who want the mechanical SR would happily accept the reduced battery life (and generate income for Pentax by buying extra batteries), and the noise would likely only be recordable by the internal microphone, or one mounted to the hot shoe. I think a handheld microphone or one on a boom pole would be sufficiently isolated from the SR noise to make it no longer an issue.

Last edited by PiDicus Rex; 03-16-2014 at 08:29 AM.
03-16-2014, 10:59 AM - 1 Like   #285
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QuoteOriginally posted by jhmos Quote
There is an explanation in the article Ricoh/Pentax Q&A: Ricoh tech into Pentax cameras, whither full-frame, and lots more as to why hardware SR is not used in video on the K-3. Comes down to noise and battery drain of the SR mechanism.
From what I understood it refers to the AA filter simulator and not shake reduction. That generally consumes more power than shake reduction because there is a permanent and high speed movement, so
much so that it required a redesigned SR mechanism as the actuators in the earlier in earlier models are not powerful enough.

In any case even if they refer to SR I'd much rather be given the opportunity to choose whether I'd rather drain the battery quicker and have some noise in the recording rather than being stuck with an almost useless stabiliser. In my particular case I usually don't need sound when I most need stabilisation (distant subjects) and even if I did I would need to use an external microphone anyway which wouldn't be affected by the SR noise.
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