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01-30-2014, 12:00 PM   #46
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QuoteOriginally posted by grispie Quote
Actually, I saw one movie once made with the K5 that hugely impressed me. Simply because it was a nice movie, but also because of the IQ of the K5. But then the maker said that he wouldn't do it again because it was just not practical. The K5 is missing some needed ergonomics the K3 has for moviemaking. I think the K5 came out at the time when all the hype around filming with dslrs started. If only they had released firmware for at least manual controls..

+1
I might be wrong but from what I understand it might not be at all possible to change the aperture on the K-5 or K-5II during video shooting. As far as I know the mechanism aperture diaphragm can only be moved while the mirror is down, so changing aperture while filming would need to flip down the mirror temporarily, which would of course ruin the video.

I'm not sure about this though as I don;t have a K-5 and I am assuming the mirror/shutter/aperture mechanism is similar to that of the K-30. The K-3 has no such limitation because the aperture, mirror and shutter each have their own independent motor unlike the single motor on (AFAIK) all other Pentax DSLRs which have one motor to do all three functions.

Maybe someone can answer these:
Is it possible to do DOF preview in live view on the K-5/K-5IIs ? If so, does it flip the mirror to do it or does the aperture just close without the mirror moving at all?
Can it do shutter priority during video (by changing aperture, not ISO)?

If it can do the DOF preview in liveview without flipping the mirror or do shutter priority AE during video then it would mean that manual aperture control during video can be implemented by firmware. If it can do neither of these then it is also highly unlikely that a firmware change can provide manual aperture control during video (as opposed to setting the aperture manually before starting the shoot, which can always be done)

01-30-2014, 02:52 PM   #47
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QuoteOriginally posted by TomGarn Quote
Now my question about the display of the K-3 while manually changing the exposure:
1. Can you see that optimized and always bright image only ?
2. Or can you see the change in brightness that comes true while stepping up and down ?
With a A-lens I see brightness changing when changing exposure.
With a M-lens it does not. To see the effect you have to make a preview with the on-off lever

Correction:
with a M lens: it does not change when changing the aperture (lens ring itself), so for that you need the preview lever (on-off switch), but the effect of changing exposure through iso or shutter is visible...

Last edited by grispie; 01-30-2014 at 03:26 PM. Reason: correction
01-30-2014, 08:54 PM   #48
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QuoteOriginally posted by grispie Quote
With a A-lens I see brightness changing when changing exposure.
With a M-lens it does not. To see the effect you have to make a preview with the on-off lever
Correction:
with a M lens: it does not change when changing the aperture (lens ring itself), so for that you need the preview lever (on-off switch), but the effect of changing exposure through iso or shutter is visible...
Please complete or comment your meaning in your true words ...
without wrong and right in one statement - for this is even more confusing ;-)
May I translate because I fear the K-3 got exactly the same stupid problem as the K-5
In other words, let me be a little German, OK ?


Statement version 1.03 - concerning visibility of manual exposure (Choose better words or correct me please)

First we need to activate AE-L on the K-5 (for the K-3 I guess either the same - or ISO-shutter autom. on OFF )

1. With the M-lense we can see brightness changing visibly - when we switch to preview by pulling the on-off switch
... while we manually dial the f-stops at the lense ...
2. With the A-lense on A position no change -
... but when switching off the A position we now have an M-lense (see 1.)
... while we manually dial the f-stops at the lense ...
3. With modern lenses without aperture-ring nothing of this kind is possible.

For photos this is no problem (while mirror shows trueview) to show the preview by pulling the on-off switch
For videos with liveview ON ( and mirror uo) it just isn't possible on a DSLR (and gets beyond my horizon)

Comment:
I really hate it that I visibly can controle aperture only - while choosing the M-lense-position (A- and M- lenses)
and have to cramp my pointing finger for to see it ... While filming btw. you see it always - and can controle aperture
Still this stupid ISO/shutter automatism is always in the way - even if you almost manage to controle it halfway. Damn it !

Last edited by TomGarn; 01-30-2014 at 09:52 PM.
01-30-2014, 09:32 PM   #49
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Ok. Using a modern lens with AF: Aperture changes in live view when I change the aperture with the dial.
Using an A lens with the aperture ring in A position: Same as with the modern lens. Turn the dial, and the aperture changes immediately.
Using an A lens with the aperture ring set to the aperture you want: Always wide open. However when recording the lens will stop down, and you can use the aperture ring to control the aperture. You can also change the aperture while recording.
My M lens is quite... damaged, so my findings are quite useless.


@PiDicus Rex: I think CineDNG just refers to a string of DNG files at high enough frame rate and maybe in a container so it can be used as a video. What type of DNG is inside isn't so important (currently there are 3 types, more or less: uncompressed (giving the same size for all frames, and photos are huge...), lossless compressed (think ZIP, just optimized for RAW files) and lossy compressed (some sort of extended JPEG intended to give the image quality of a RAW file, but with smaller files. Same editing capabilities, mostly).


I think MJPEG will be editable for a long time, but CineDNG simply gives you higher latitude, more range while editing. It's like editing RAW stills instead of JPEG stills.


Well, I still like my SR, though I agree that manual control over exposure is probably more important. But the thing is no one, especially not Pentax has convinced me that it was absolutely necessary to deactivate SR in the K-3. And that is what they did. There isn't even a higher up model they want to protect. Even if the sensor gets warmer, just make it possible to use it and give us a warning. It makes no sense to me why the K-3 isn't as good as possible, making full use of the hardware. It's already there and paid for after all. Just think about the Nikon Df, which technically can do video, but can't, because Nikon thinks... well, I really don't know what they thought. Maybe they've read too much Pentaxforums with all the whiners complaining the camera should not be able to do video.


Anyway I just use the aperture and exposure compensation to control exposure, and AE-L to hold it, and let the camera to do the rest. Not ideal, but oh well.


Last edited by kadajawi; 01-30-2014 at 09:46 PM.
01-30-2014, 10:43 PM   #50
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Grispie - on the M-lens, once shooting video, what happens when you change the iris?

And can you change the iris on A-lenses from the body while recording.
Page 38 of the manual doesn't say, the wording used just says they can be set before recording.

I'm used to the K-01, where f-stop, shutter speed and ISO can all be changed during recording - And as 'live view' with the mirror locked up is the same as mirrorless operation, I wouldn't see why the operations to change those setting would be any different on the K3.

QuoteOriginally posted by TomGarn Quote
Still this stupid ISO/shutter automatism is always in the way - even if you almost manage to controle it halfway. Damn it !
So it has the Auto-ISO with M-lenses that the K-01 used to have? That would be VERY annoying.

QuoteOriginally posted by kadajawi Quote
I think MJPEG will be editable for a long time, but CineDNG simply gives you higher latitude, more range while editing. It's like editing RAW stills instead of JPEG stills.
And that's why it appeals so much

And just a reminder - the K3 can already do Mjpeg compression - it's used for the Interval Movie mode, which uses the Stills image frame size.

Last edited by PiDicus Rex; 01-30-2014 at 10:58 PM.
01-30-2014, 11:41 PM   #51
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QuoteOriginally posted by PiDicus Rex Quote
Grispie - on the M-lens, once shooting video, what happens when you change the iris?
while recording, on M lens, changing the iris will change the brightness on screen. No difference from an A lens.
the only difference between A and M lens is BEFORE recording. If you want to see the effect of aperture change with an M lens, you'll need to stop it down with the on-off lever, which seems logical.

you're correct btw: my k01 with an M lens does not need stopping down before recording. guess that is logical as well.

QuoteOriginally posted by TomGarn Quote
Please complete or comment your meaning in your true words ...
think the above is clear now.
01-31-2014, 12:09 AM   #52
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QuoteOriginally posted by PiDicus Rex Quote
And just a reminder - the K3 can already do Mjpeg compression - it's used for the Interval Movie mode, which uses the Stills image frame size.
Exactly my point. The K-3 is clearly not aimed at the beginner buying a cheap camcorder to take a video of his baby. It has a headphone out with manual gain control for crying out loud. It has manual exposure controls! It shouldn't be limited in functionality just to keep it simple and easy to use. It is a DSLR, with no proper auto focus, it is not easy to use for video anyway. Pentax should assume that those who want to shoot video with the K-3 are at a more advanced level, they know what they are doing and don't mind doing a bit of research. They can understand the different SR modes, and in which situations which mode makes most sense (and Pentax could put it in the manual too). They can understand the different codecs, and will use the correct codec for the purpose. Choice is actually a good thing in a tool that is meant for enthusiasts and pros.


Btw., Android phones (at least mine) have an advanced option in the settings. You have to enter a "secret code" (tap something 8 times or so...), then you have unlocked the developer options where it gets really nerdy and advanced (options such as "Enable Bluetooth HCI snoop log, Force RTL layout direction, ... complete with a warning screen that you may break your phone/cause instability when you activate the developer options). I wouldn't mind if that is what Pentax does too. Some computer programs offer different modes, one where they keep it simple, and one for the advanced user. Sony offers 2 different UIs for the A7 IIRC, one that is NEX based, one that is alpha based (i.e. consumer vs amateur/enthusiast/pro). You can switch between them.


I'd really like to have a chat with one of the engineers at Pentax... find out what the thinking behind the camera and the UI was. Clearly the still mode is quite advanced, it acknowledges that the K-3 is not meant for beginners, and it gives the owner a ton of choice, which could make a beginners head explode. Why then is the video mode kept as simple as possible? If it were the K-500 or K-50, ok. But the K-3...

Last edited by kadajawi; 01-31-2014 at 12:25 AM.
01-31-2014, 12:42 AM   #53
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QuoteOriginally posted by PiDicus Rex Quote
And can you change the iris on A-lenses from the body while recording.
yes

btw, the only thing I think is unfortunate is (both with K01 and the K3) is that when using an M lens, the zebra's dissappear.
So you have to judge exposure on sight then or with the histogram.

01-31-2014, 01:25 AM   #54
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QuoteOriginally posted by TomGarn Quote
Still this stupid ISO/shutter automatism is always in the way - even if you almost manage to controle it halfway. Damn it !
QuoteOriginally posted by kadajawi Quote
Anyway I just use the aperture and exposure compensation to control exposure, and AE-L to hold it, and let the camera to do the rest. Not ideal, but oh well.
Seems to me Kadajawi's answer might be the best way to handle the k5.
I read somewhere on this forum that the K5 will use a shutter of 1/125 for video. I could live with that and just manage exposure with aperture / AEL and a ND filter?
Does the K5 have zebras btw?

QuoteOriginally posted by kadajawi Quote
Pentax should assume that those who want to shoot video with the K-3 are at a more advanced level, they know what they are doing and don't mind doing a bit of research.
That is true, they could have stretched the camera a little bit more. I hope they do it through firmware updates. They'll need to if they want to keep up with competition.
But honestly, one day, I see myself ending up with an advanced sony nex-mount body where i can put all my nice pentax glass on... :-)
01-31-2014, 03:43 AM   #55
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The K-5 can flash underexposed parts in bright yellow, if you want to. Overexposed probably too, not sure what color. Problem is that it is so bright that you'll get blinded at night.

I hope they do, but I wouldn't be too hopeful. They have to if they don't want to loose too many customers...
01-31-2014, 04:10 AM   #56
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kadajawi wrote:
Using a modern lens with AF: Aperture changes in live view when I change the aperture with the dial.
Using an A lens with the aperture ring in A position: Same as with the modern lens. Turn the dial, and
the aperture changes immediately.

No. Are you talking about the K-5 or K-3 ?
Something is wrong above if it is about the K-5:

My K-5 does not show any aperture change - it is all the same while dialing.
The image only changes when ISO and shutter-speed react when your f-stop is to high or low
You made a wrong assumption here ... Try to just watch it yourself again ...

Well, I still like my SR, though I agree that manual control over exposure is probably more important.

Yes ... I can't hide that enlightenment too.

But the thing is no one, especially not Pentax has convinced me that it was absolutely necessary to
deactivate SR in the K-3. And that is what they did. There isn't even a higher up model they want to
protect.

Even if the sensor gets warmer, just make it possible to use it and give us a warning.
What ?
There is warning on my K-5 >>> a red thermometer <<< and I can still record then
.... of course I know while in low light mode .... this could mean hot-pixles may pop up now
!

It makes no sense to me why the K-3 isn't as good as possible, making full use of the hardware.
It's already there and paid for after all.
Well, I really don't know what they thought. Maybe they've read too much Pentaxforums with all the
whiners complaining the camera should not be able to do video

Yes ... my thoughts and feelings too !
So if we can manage together - to put up a letter here - but before discuss the points
so in the end we have no confusion left among us that will be some a kind of declaration
for the firmwared K-3 or a new K-1
... we can send it to Pentax .... and might get some kind of answer ...

Anyway I just use the aperture and exposure compensation to control exposure, and AE-L to hold it,
and let the camera to do the rest. Not ideal, but oh well.


It will work out only - if you really know what you are doing - and if you don't have to be very quick
and precisely on the spot while trying to point and shoot a spontaneous happening ...

But when lightening changes, what to do ? Free exposure is a must then - so you must go find it in
the menue and loosen the fixed aperture just for one shot ? That's weird
and no good. ... but needed.
You can let the ISO / shutter speed - automatic do that job, but that's even worse and unwantedly strong.

Also ...
The only way to find a neutral aperture first is to push the green button - and so understand what the
K-5 thinks is a good medium exposure - hopefully far away from ISO and faster shutter-speed ...
Automatic / fixed aperture needs a special button of course ... in a better reality
...

Last edited by TomGarn; 01-31-2014 at 04:36 AM.
01-31-2014, 04:31 AM   #57
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grispie wrote:
I read somewhere on this forum that the K5 will use a shutter of 1/125 for video.

Only if it gets to bright the shutter will start the speed to rise up
Usually it should be trying to keep 1/50 if you are on 25 fps ...
To prevent this choose 16 - 22 or 32 ... Or much better. Go for ND filters, yes.


Does the K5 have zebras btw?
No

They'll need to if they want to keep up with competition.
But honestly, one day, I see myself ending up with an
advanced sony nex-mount body where i can put all my
nice pentax glass on... :-)


Right now I want to go for manual lenses only - or better with A - just for the future
with a Lumix GH4 ;-) Pentax do your homework NOW !

Last edited by TomGarn; 01-31-2014 at 04:37 AM.
01-31-2014, 04:59 AM   #58
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QuoteOriginally posted by grispie Quote
btw, the only thing I think is unfortunate is (both with K01 and the K3) is that when using an M lens, the zebra's dissappear.
So you have to judge exposure on sight then or with the histogram.
What zebras? Please tell me where I find them on the K-01, because mine doesn't have this option that I can find?
01-31-2014, 05:08 AM   #59
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euhm,
they just are on the bottom of the screen when recording..
I think they were there from the beginning, not sure anymore. Or maybe just after the latest firmware.
But only with "A" lenses and modern lenses.

just to make sure: we are talking about over/under exposure zebras? right?
01-31-2014, 05:26 AM   #60
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I have the latest firmware.
Why should the lens make any difference to zebra patterns, it's not a function of the lens.
Zebra Patterns are set at a predetermined exposure level to guide highlights. I don't think they have anything to do with under exposure (at least they don't in my camcorder experience).

There is nothing in the K-01 manual about zebra patterns.
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