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01-31-2014, 05:35 AM   #61
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Using a modern lens with AF: Aperture changes in live view when I change the aperture with the dial.
Using an A lens with the aperture ring in A position: Same as with the modern lens. Turn the dial, and
the aperture changes immediately.

No. Are you talking about the K-5 or K-3 ?
Something is wrong above if it is about the K-5:

My K-5 does not show any aperture change - it is all the same while dialing.
The image only changes when ISO and shutter-speed react when your f-stop is to high or low
You made a wrong assumption here ... Try to just watch it yourself again ...



Nope. Talking about the K-5. And it does change the aperture in Live View (I've set the camera so that I can change the aperture via the dial in video mode). You can see the lens stop down or open up... maybe there is a setting for that somewhere? It's not an assumption. Now of course the camera will adjust the shutter speed and ISO to get the exposure back, but the aperture is actually changed. This is not the behavior of the K-30 or 50, where it does indeed set it to a certain aperture (I'd say with the 50 1.8 it was somewhere around 3.5 to 5.6...) and only changes to the chosen value once you start recording. If you insist I'll try to take a video of it.

Well, I still like my SR, though I agree that manual control over exposure is probably more important.

Yes ... I can't hide that enlightenment too.



I personally can live with that limitation though, while no IBIS would make my videos useless. I rarely know when I go out that I need stabilization, and it may not be a situation where it is appropriate to put the camera on some gear. But for more professional filmmaking you absolutely need more control over exposure, and there it's fine adding additional gear to the camera.

But the thing is no one, especially not Pentax has convinced me that it was absolutely necessary to
deactivate SR in the K-3. And that is what they did. There isn't even a higher up model they want to
protect.

Even if the sensor gets warmer, just make it possible to use it and give us a warning.
What ?
There is warning on my K-5 >>> a red thermometer <<< and I can still record then
.... of course I know while in low light mode .... this could mean hot-pixles may pop up now
!



What I mean is... there is the speculation that IBIS heats up the camera/sensor more, so in order to keep hot pixels under control they deactivated IBIS. Not sure if that really is the case, but if so, just add a warning when activating IBIS instead of electronic SR or no SR which says that it heats up the sensor more, thus it can lead (faster) to hot pixels in high ISO situations, and that sensor movement noises may be picked up by the microphone. Then users are warned, and if they still want to use it - perhaps cause audio isn't important, perhaps because they'd rather have stable video with a few hot pixels than wobbly, unstable video, or perhaps they shoot during daytime/for a short while and it wouldn't be visible - they can.

It makes no sense to me why the K-3 isn't as good as possible, making full use of the hardware.
It's already there and paid for after all.
Well, I really don't know what they thought. Maybe they've read too much Pentaxforums with all the
whiners complaining the camera should not be able to do video

Yes ... my thoughts and feelings too !
So if we can manage together - to put up a letter here - but before discuss the points
so in the end we have no confusion left among us that will besome a kind of declaration
for the ne K-3 or K-1 ... we can send it to Pentax .... and might get some kind of answer ...



I think that could be done, if it wasn't already (at least the list), maybe Adam could hand it over? Sort of like a petition. lol. Maybe even Steve can contribute, and perhaps agree that certain features I wish would be nice to have, even if not absolutely necessary.

Anyway I just use the aperture and exposure compensation to control exposure, and AE-L to hold it,
and let the camera to do the rest. Not ideal, but oh well.


It will work out only - if you really know what you are doing - and if you don't have to be very quick
and precisely on the spot while trying to point and shoot a spontaneous happening ...

But when lightening changes, what to do ? Free exposure is a must then - so you must go find it in
the menue and loosen the fixed aperture just for one shot ? That's weird
and no good. ... but needed.
You can let the ISO / shutter speed - automatic do that job, but that's even worse and unwantedly strong.

Also ...
The only way to find a neutral aperture first is to push the green button - and so understand what the
K-5 thinks is a good medium exposure - hopefully far away from ISO and faster shutter-speed ...
Automatic / fixed aperture needs a special button of course ... in a better reality
...


Hm. I usually am more concerned about the DoF that I want for a particular shot, so that's what I base the aperture on. Also I am usually much better at focusing when there is shallow DoF.


What did you mean by zebras? I thought it's meant to show if it is overexposed or not... and that the K-5 does show, just not in the form of zebras but of flashing yellow... (zebras would be better...).

01-31-2014, 05:37 AM   #62
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QuoteOriginally posted by Steve.Ledger Quote
I have the latest firmware.
Why should the lens make any difference to zebra patterns, it's not a function of the lens.
Zebra Patterns are set at a predetermined exposure level to guide highlights. I don't think they have anything to do with under exposure (at least they don't in my camcorder experience).

There is nothing in the K-01 manual about zebra patterns.

I think I may be using the word zebras for something else. I'm just talking about the vertical lines on the bottom showing whether general exposure is over or under. Seems the Magic lantern zebras look different and are more similar to a pentax showing the overexposed highlights area in a colour e.g. (but which you cannot predetermine...)
Sorry for the confusion

No, it's not a function of the lens, but yet, with an m-lens, that exposure meter is just not there anymore...
I wonder how come
01-31-2014, 06:54 AM   #63
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Ok, here we go:

Last edited by kadajawi; 01-31-2014 at 10:35 AM.
01-31-2014, 08:54 PM   #64
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QuoteOriginally posted by grispie Quote
you're correct btw: my k01 with an M lens does not need stopping down before recording. guess that is logical as well.
That was part of the v1.04 changes - before that you had to have one of the Button set as Preview, but because of the AutoISO in those version, the preview would stop down and the ISO would ramp up to compensate. As it is now it is much much better.


Kadajawi: Eaxactly! these are 'pro' tools, not point n shoot for selfies. The developer tools,.. yes, and I'd got so far in a chat with the Engineers to suggest freeing up system resources by removing all the post-production applets, as those of us who are most likely to understand them, are more likely to do those sorts of changes in Lightroom, GIMP or Edius ( or which ever Photo app and NLE you prefer )

Grispie: the 'Zebra' and the Focus Peaking both disappear on hitting record. While I'd love the Focus Peaking to be able to stay, the Bright/Dark area display is not as much as an issue for me - My habits when shooting, the only time I'm likely to leave them on is recording a stand-up interview (like a sports player or race car driver) in bright sun light, and That would be the 1 time in 100 that we couldn't move the driver in to the shade.

QuoteOriginally posted by Steve.Ledger Quote
What zebras? Please tell me where I find them on the K-01, because mine doesn't have this option that I can find?
Steve: In the 'Stills' menu #3, Live View -> Bright/Dark Area.
See page 190 of the K-01 manual.

As Grispie said, the Magic Lantern 'Zebra' pattern is different, or rather, the Pentax display is different to what Zebra patterns for over exposed area's look like on every other camera - the ML ones are the same as Broadcast / RED / Alexa / etc etc.

01-31-2014, 09:09 PM - 1 Like   #65
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Thanks, I'm aware of the red/yellow bright/dark highlighting (similar to LR). But my point was it's not video zebra patterns which are traditional for video, neither is there the normally present 70%-100% tolerance setting.

Never mind, we all know what we mean
01-31-2014, 09:29 PM   #66
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So... do you guys think we should try to compile a list of features/options to make the K-3 into a more serious tool? It seems to me that they were going in that direction with the hardware (headphone jack, manual gain), but for some reason they didn't go all the way. Maybe they don't know better...? (My impression of Pentax is that everyone involved in product development is a photographer, so they understand what photographers need. Video... not so much). Especially the more professional people here could contribute to that list...
01-31-2014, 10:11 PM   #67
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QuoteOriginally posted by kadajawi Quote
So... do you guys think we should try to compile a list of features/options to make the K-3 into a more serious tool?
Yes, Indeed. If the Engineers have feedback about what features, and how those features should operate (according to industry normals), then they will have more useful information to work from as they move forward with the firmware development.
02-01-2014, 02:25 AM   #68
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I think that's a rather arrogant position to take, assuming that Pentax/Ricoh have no idea what's happening in the industry or how to conduct market research. I think they've been in business just a little while..

Of course, they may indeed choose to listen to the the dozen or so K-3 owner voices here at PF, smack themselves upside the head and change their entire road map, what do I know

02-01-2014, 03:09 AM   #69
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QuoteOriginally posted by Steve.Ledger Quote
I think that's a rather arrogant position to take, assuming that Pentax/Ricoh have no idea what's happening in the industry or how to conduct market research. I think they've been in business just a little while..

Of course, they may indeed choose to listen to the the dozen or so K-3 owner voices here at PF, smack themselves upside the head and change their entire road map, what do I know
Haha. Do they look like they have a clue about video? Unless they really only see it as a consumer feature. Pentax has no professional video camera business they could hurt. They could go all out, and have nothing to loose.
02-01-2014, 04:25 AM   #70
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QuoteOriginally posted by kadajawi Quote
Haha. Do they look like they have a clue about video?
Look guys, because you can sit in your computer chairs picking the heck out of the K-3s new professional video features (their words, not mine) and spent silly time looking hard for issues (just to post on a forum) that annoy you (wobbles/jello/bitrates/blah blah bloody blah) and post extremely amateur examples of rubbish results that you can get with any camera if you have zero skill then make all sort of ridiculous "they should have done this and that" statements on a forum which doesn't matter to PR in real terms, doesn't make you right or smart enough to say about a multi billion dollar business which employs over one hundred thousand people and have been in business since before you were born if "they have a clue". Of course they have a clue and know exactly what they are doing, otherwise they'd not have poured millions into producing a new model. Arrogance and naivety plus.. Good grief... Incredible..

Last edited by Steve.Ledger; 02-01-2014 at 04:35 AM.
02-01-2014, 05:20 AM   #71
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QuoteOriginally posted by kadajawi Quote
So... do you guys think we should try to compile a list of features/options to make the K-3 into a more serious tool? It seems to me that they were going in that direction with the hardware (headphone jack, manual gain), but for some reason they didn't go all the way. Maybe they don't know better...? (My impression of Pentax is that everyone involved in product development is a photographer, so they understand what photographers need. Video... not so much). Especially the more professional people here could contribute to that list...
The thing is, this would be like giving comments to a car manufacturer on what direction they should take it with their new cars. The car guy would ask: "so, you didn't like our last car?" and the answer would be: "sorry, haven't tried that one out.."

Seriously, I also believe they firmly know what they are doing and they are just making choices as to the resources they have. And for sure these engineers will know more about video than I do.
I'm not against feedback, as companies do listen to it, but this has to come through professional channels from people who know what they are doing and have a proven track in this area.
02-01-2014, 08:34 AM - 1 Like   #72
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QuoteOriginally posted by Steve.Ledger Quote
Look guys, because you can sit in your computer chairs picking the heck out of the K-3s new professional video features (their words, not mine) and spent silly time looking hard for issues (just to post on a forum) that annoy you (wobbles/jello/bitrates/blah blah bloody blah) and post extremely amateur examples of rubbish results that you can get with any camera if you have zero skill then make all sort of ridiculous "they should have done this and that" statements on a forum which doesn't matter to PR in real terms, doesn't make you right or smart enough to say about a multi billion dollar business which employs over one hundred thousand people and have been in business since before you were born if "they have a clue". Of course they have a clue and know exactly what they are doing, otherwise they'd not have poured millions into producing a new model. Arrogance and naivety plus.. Good grief... Incredible..
@Steve.Ledger: I hope you read through this. I did not mean to condescend the Pentax engineers, I don't think I am better than them or can teach them anything.

Shaking the camera left and right does serve a purpose. It amplifies the problem to make it more visible. I could also do the same with the K-5, and upload it, the problem is you'd say I didn't move the camera at all. What use is that then? The difference between the K-3 and other cameras that have this problem is that they don't have the hardware built in to lessen it. The K-3 does, but doesn't use it.

Also I was merely talking about suggestions. Maybe they've heard them before and decided against them, maybe they haven't. Does it harm to try?

As for Pentax/Ricoh being a multi billion dollar business with hundred thousand employees... yes, they are big, but which part exactly has been doing video? Ricoh is big in copying machines. Related to video? I think not. Pentax has been producing still cameras, apart from a few rebadged consumer camcorder in the 80s and 90s. Neither brand has been doing anything in the video area (to my knowledge). Does a linguist have a clue about quantum physics? Probably not. Does an electrical engineer have a clue about psychology? Probably not. Doesn't make any of them dumb, but different companies have different areas of expertise. Different employees have different areas of expertise, different interests.

Are you honestly 100% happy with the K-3 in terms of video? Or is there anything you'd wish for? Anything that might even be done in the firmware.

I'd like to know what the strategy behind the video portion of the K-3 is. What is it aimed at, what Pentax thinks it is for. I can understand why Canon doesn't implement RAW video on their 7D and 5D Mk III, even though the hardware can do it (as some people HACKING the camera have proven, probably without all that much access to the original source code, the specs, etc.). Canon has cameras capable of shooting RAW video. These cameras are very expensive, and they don't want to hurt the sales of those by giving way cheaper cameras the same capabilities. Pentax isn't hindered by that.
You could say Pentax doesn't care about video, so naturally they didn't put any ressources into it. But if they don't, why the headphone jack? Why manual gain? Why have a switch to go into the video mode, instead of having it hidden on the mode dial as before?
You could say the K-3 isn't meant for professional video use, so they decided to keep it simple, so that newbies can just shoot quick videos of a cute little puppy doing funny stuff. Except that the newbie will be frustrated by the lack of proper continuous video AF. Also, simplicity doesn't need to exclude power users. Pentax cameras have a green mode to dumb down the camera when needed. This could be implemented in the video mode too.
You could say they didn't have the resources for implementing a more sophisticated video mode. To do the necessary research. To implement the findings. I think that is what has happened. That is the way the camera feels. (Especially the SR... the imaging processor by Fujitsu AFAIK has an electronic shake reduction feature, and it seems like Pentax just activated it). Perhaps if we are vocal enough, if we give them suggestions of what they can look into, of what their user base wants, they may reconsider, and at least some of the work is already done. I'd like them to have a look at Magic Latern for example. See if they can implement anything that there is in that firmware. Maybe even work with the Magic Lantern guys, give them the access that is needed to properly implement what they want to.

What I meant by Pentax not having a clue about video was just that when I use a Pentax camera, any Pentax camera (at least the DSLRs), I get the sense that it was made by a photographer. I get the sense that Pentax employees, engineers are into photography, they care about it, they do it, they build the tools they want to use themselves. I don't get that feeling when I use a Canon. I get it a bit when using a Nikon, and more yet when using a Sony. But the most I get that feeling when using a Pentax, or a Fuji. But in terms of video, nope, nothing. It just seems to me as if they implemented video cause all cameras have video. That Pentax engineers are simply more interested in shooting photos than videos.

I'm not a pro. No doubt about that. I'm merely interested in it. I'd rather have others, if possible professional videographers compile a list, and maybe just contribute one or two things that I would like to have.

@grispie: I have tried the K-3. And I don't like it, to be honest. The still part is great. The video part I simply prefer my K-5. I don't have any regret for buying the K-5 when not much later the K-3 came out. And I would buy a K-5 again, over a K-3, cause the still part of the K-5 is pretty much perfect anyway (K-3 being better, but how much better than almost perfect can you get?), while I have a massive dislike for the video part, for what I am shooting, for how I am shooting it.

And hell, please ask actual professionals in the business what they'd want the K-3 to do (and maybe give them a K-5 too, so they see what the hardware can do).

Pentax is in a relatively unique position. Pentax, Nikon and Olympus do not do professional video cameras, Canon, Panasonic and Sony do. So Pentax could go crazy on the K-3, and hopefully attract new customers. Do things that Canon, Panasonic and Sony wouldn't want to do, cause they want to sell more expensive cameras. Would that be so bad? Pentax now has Ricoh behind them. And Ricoh has money.
02-01-2014, 09:23 AM   #73
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QuoteOriginally posted by kadajawi Quote
So... do you guys think we should try to compile a list of features/options to make the K-3 into a more serious tool? It seems to me that they were going in that direction with the hardware (headphone jack, manual gain), but for some reason they didn't go all the way. Maybe they don't know better...? (My impression of Pentax is that everyone involved in product development is a photographer, so they understand what photographers need. Video... not so much). Especially the more professional people here could contribute to that list...
Could you include K5ii in that. It seems some firmware upgrade would help a lot. (PS: The AE-L is a great idea - Its not in the manual BTW.)
02-01-2014, 09:43 AM   #74
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QuoteOriginally posted by kadajawi Quote
So... do you guys think we should try to compile a list of features/options to make the K-3 into a more serious tool? It seems to me that they were going in that direction with the hardware (headphone jack, manual gain), but for some reason they didn't go all the way. Maybe they don't know better...? (My impression of Pentax is that everyone involved in product development is a photographer, so they understand what photographers need. Video... not so much). Especially the more professional people here could contribute to that list...
I can tell you as an engineer that often what gets put into a product is based on what technology affords. It would be good to give GOOD feedback to Pentax. When I say GOOD I mean a serious list of requirements to make the K5/K3 usable to the semi/pro. The list should include must have features and why, and beneficial "nice-to-have" features that would be good selling features but not essential.

I'm planning to get into video/film to help my son and I find myself seriously looking at my K5ii to see if it can do the job - at least for a short film. So far it seems plausible but could be improved easily. Hopefully Pentax will reward their faithful with at least firmware improvements.

PS: Back in the day I was working on a video camera contract with Toshiba and I can tell you they were very conservative. They were very reluctant to add features even though we, the high paying customer were requesting them. Conservatism may explain the small steps we see in the implementation of video, which has come to be expected in DSLRs now. Its frustrating because video is expected and the flagship cameras like K5/K3 ought to provide it as a "pro"sumer requires.

Last edited by gbeaton; 02-01-2014 at 11:36 AM. Reason: Added PS:
02-01-2014, 11:14 AM   #75
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I have scanned this thread and dont know if what I am about to say is already been discussed but I had a K-5 and the video was, well, ok. Not good, just ok. With the K-3 the shake reduction is useless. The video Q is better because there is no dead pixels. The K-5 gave me shiny red spots from dead pixels and they changed the sensor and new dead pixels came. That is history but still; The video quality of the K-3 is poor, really poor. I have a Sony RX-100 and comparing the quality is like comparing a Ferrari to a Volvo 240 and the K-3 is the 240. It sucks. The only thing missing on the RX-100 is audio control but if you have bad video the audio does not matter.

My tests has been made in good light and on tripod, camera locked down, not using shake reduction and in Manual on slow moving subjects. Result: Sony sharp and noiseless, K-3, pretty sharp but with a feel of heat vapor from the ground like in the desert. Did also one extra shot with two stops down with the K-3 for the depth of field.

Long story short: I am dissapointed and will keep using the tiny RX-100 and my 3 CCD Panasonic for my video work. I was hoping to only have to bring the K-3.

(Tried to post some video but it didnt stick...)
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