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06-23-2014, 11:49 AM - 1 Like   #406
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Just for the halibut, I did a shutter count on my K-3 right after it was returned to me (presumably fixed) by C.R.I.S. The count was 1,214 shutter actuations since I bought the camera in November of last year. During that time, I had 2 instances of mirror flutter. That's a .0016474 occurrence rate, roughly 1.65 instances per thousand. Yes, it was annoying. I lived with that, figuring the odds against it happening at a critical moment like a "once in a lifetime" shot were virtually nil. OK, Pentax says they fixed it. I'm GUESSING that there was a randomly occurring voltage anomaly that punched the mirror motor's hot button, and that there's an integrated circuit in there that was not keeping the voltage to that motor within certain parameters. They PROBABLY fixed that by re-programming that IC (the imbedded firmware fix) to regulate the voltage to that component in a more responsive and restrictive fashion. If that was the problem, they found the cure and will fix it on request. Big freaking deal. Nothing's perfect, not even me. Move on, folks. There's nothing more to see here. If you've experienced the mirror flutter problem even once, then send the camera in to C.R.I.S. In the meanwhile, use the camera you used before you got the K-3 as a backup, and wait the few days to get your excellent K-3 back. Then you can use all its innovative features (the best in the enthusiast DSLR category, in my opinion) to take all those shots you could only dream about before - and not worry about mirror flutter any more.

John

06-23-2014, 12:14 PM   #407
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QuoteOriginally posted by PALADIN85020 Quote
to regulate the voltage to that component in a more responsive and restrictive fashion
That seems, to me, the heart of it.
A series of Pentaxes have had well reported voltage/metering issues - K-x w. various types of AA's, K-5 with 'hot' batteries. Multiple K-3 firmware increments may be involved in delivering more K-3 stability. The K-5 had about 16 firmware updates to fix/tune/add various things (judging by the firmware version numbers) which has no doubt fed into the stability of the K-5II.

Last edited by rawr; 06-23-2014 at 12:22 PM.
06-23-2014, 02:30 PM   #408
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I've had 12,400 shutter actuations on my K-3 and I've had one instance.... so that's .00008 chance of it happening. And getting smaller every day.
06-23-2014, 03:07 PM   #409
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Happened to me as well :(

Hi Folks,

This happened to me June 6th, 2014.

Serial number: 4910338

Purchase date: Feb. 2014

I read about this issue and some folks having it occur when they've had 2 SD cards in.
Previous to that day, I've only used 1 card in Slot #1. This day, however, I put 2 cards in.

I had configured user setting 1 with some slower shutter (1/250) and the hi fps setting.
Was snapping a photo and the shutter went snap crazy for 8 seconds or so. Then I I managed to turn the camera off and it continued for another 3 seconds after it was off.

Waited for what felt like an eternity and turned it back on with no issues. Did not snap another photo. Then immediately removed the SD from Slot #2.

Have used it since with no recurrence although still with only 1 SD card. Afraid to put that 2nd one in

Not sure what to do at this point except try to duplicate the issue to confirm?

Cheers,
Keebler

06-23-2014, 03:36 PM   #410
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normhead's situation, IMO, qualifies as "sunrise problem": Rule of succession - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
we can look at it from 2 perspectives: probability that the next shot will be successful, or probability that the next shot will be failure. I believe, we're interested in the latter.

The formula is: P = (S+1)/(N+2). S is success, N is total experiments. Since we're looking at the problem from the "other side", i.e., treating mirror flop as a "success", the numbers are like these:
S = 1 (out of all experiments, normhead managed to bring the camera into nirvana once), and N = 12400, total amount of experiments.
So, the probability, that Norm's K-3 will flop during the next activation is (1+1)/(12400+2) = 0.00016, less than 0.02%

for DRabbit, the situation is significantly worse. She's treating a set of activations as a single shot. here we have couple of possibilities: either treat each time lapse as a single shot - which is not exactly fair , since the probability of failure seems to be a function of time (or activations) - the longer you shoot, the larger chance of running into the issue, or we should take the mean amount of shots per session into account and apply the following rule: if actual number of activations per time lapse is less than mean, it still counts as one successful time lapse; for the rest: round to nearest. in ##: if mean amount of shots per time lapse is 500, a time lapse with 400 counts as one, a time lapse with 700 counts as one, a time lapse with 850 counts as 2.

Regardless of methods, it is possible (to a degree) to predict the probability of a successful time lapse, but matters get complicated, if we take into account the hypothesis that the likelihood of mirror flop rises exponentially with longer series of rapid successive shutter activations. statisticians - welcome to participate in the discussion
06-23-2014, 04:45 PM   #411
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QuoteOriginally posted by karro Quote
normhead's situation, IMO, qualifies as "sunrise problem": Rule of succession - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
we can look at it from 2 perspectives: probability that the next shot will be successful, or probability that the next shot will be failure. I believe, we're interested in the latter.

The formula is: P = (S+1)/(N+2). S is success, N is total experiments. Since we're looking at the problem from the "other side", i.e., treating mirror flop as a "success", the numbers are like these:
S = 1 (out of all experiments, normhead managed to bring the camera into nirvana once), and N = 12400, total amount of experiments.
So, the probability, that Norm's K-3 will flop during the next activation is (1+1)/(12400+2) = 0.00016, less than 0.02%
Darn, I thought it was less than .008%.This changes everything. I'm returning this camera immediately. Darn hociR incompetence.
06-23-2014, 04:51 PM   #412
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and they are slow, and you should sell their stock as well, before it bottoms up or out or whatever
06-24-2014, 05:41 AM   #413
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See this thread about a possible upcoming fix in a firmware update. I hope it is true.

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/172-pentax-k-3/266419-rumoured-k-3-f-w-up...provement.html

06-24-2014, 06:20 AM   #414
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JPT: There is no need for rumors. Pentax/Ricoh USA, CRIS and the service center in Germany have all confirmed there is a "base firmware" fix for people who have run into the issue. See here: https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/172-pentax-k-3/254464-k3-crazy-mirror-sic...ml#post2847808

Whether the article means user-installable firmware or not, who knows. Because of translation issues, it's possible they simply read what has been posted here on PF and thought it was just "firmware" and not "base firmware that can only be installed by a service center". Time will tell. If there ends up being a user installable firmware update that "improves" the issue, that will be a good development. I just don't know why they can't seem to ELIMINATE the problem.



Keebler: Number of SD cards in the camera doesn't matter. This was a theory I put to the test a while ago and was able to reproduce mirror-flapping with both 1 or 2 SD cards in the K3... it just didn't matter.


As for statistics - I'm no statistician myself, probably the opposite of one since my math skills are pathetic - LOL. I can only say what I've repeated a few times now... How often you run into the problem seems to be linked to how much you use the camera. The more you use it, the more you will run into the problem. Pro shooters, heavy shooters, wedding shooters, time-lapse shooters... it seems they would all be more likely to run into the issue than the casual weekend shooter, and that's purely because of the number of shutter actuations being put on the K3.

Whether it concerns you personally or not, only the user can decide. For me, I was running into the problem way too often for me to be able to rely on the K3 to get the job done. My clients don't care if it happens once a day, once a week or once a month... if they are the ones that end up suffering because I lose a series of shots due to a faulty camera, they are going to be annoyed regardless of the probability of it happening again. I know I sound like a broken record, but if I were a wedding shooter, I'd be terrified to have it happen in the church where it's quiet and the mirror-flapping would not only cause me to miss important shots, but could disrupt the ceremony itself. Again, doesn't matter if it happens at one wedding or ten. Missed shots and an angry client is never good.

Whatever the probability factor for the K3 is, it's a whole lot higher than with a K5-II or K5-IIs.
06-24-2014, 06:49 AM   #415
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QuoteQuote:
For me, I was running into the problem way too often for me to be able to rely on the K3 to get the job done. My clients don't care if it happens once a day, once a week or once a month...
So let me see if I understand this correctly, you have clients, but not a back up body? ...

From my perspective, a client should never even know you went to a back-up body. You change bodies the way you change lenses, pros used to have to change bodies all the time because they were constantly running out of film, and handing one body to an assistant. I'm having a bit of trouble understanding the situation you are describing, maybe you could post a real life scenario where this has affected you.

All I'm saying is, if you're a pro, you know how to deal with a camera malfunction, and that's way more than a K-3 issue. Or do you know of some system that has never malfunctioned?
06-24-2014, 07:12 AM   #416
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
So let me see if I understand this correctly, you have clients, but not a back up body? ...

From my perspective, a client should never even know you went to a back-up body. You change bodies the way you change lenses, pros used to have to change bodies all the time because they were constantly running out of film, and handing one body to an assistant. I'm having a bit of trouble understanding the situation you are describing, maybe you could post a real life scenario where this has affected you.

All I'm saying is, if you're a pro, you know how to deal with a camera malfunction, and that's way more than a K-3 issue. Or do you know of some system that has never malfunctioned?
Norm, backup body or not, she doesn't have a backup wedding. I appreciate that malfunctions happen, but I also appreciate that we customers should insist that a product this expensive shouldn't go bat-crap crazy once in a blue moon. I don't own a K-3, but my K-r had this problem...or at least similar symptoms. It became completely prohibitive to take photos with (but since fixed). I would have been a nervous wreck using that body in a professional setting, even with a backup.
06-24-2014, 07:43 AM   #417
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QuoteOriginally posted by Quicksand Quote
That "(evaluation and testing are still ongoing)" part of the reply is disconcerting. Do they really know what's going on?
Doesnt' sound bad for me, as an engineer. The Mirror flop is a random failure, it is very difficult to fix cause there isn't scenario that allows to reproduce the problem and hence to test the fix. I myself encountered only once in february, and never again. They have to perform extensive, long duration tests to be sure that the fix works. They really can't afford to recall the K3s, apply the fix, and have users still reporting Mirror flop issues on a K3 after fix/retrofit

---------- Post added 06-24-2014 at 04:47 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by ofer4 Quote
Norm, backup body or not, she doesn't have a backup wedding. I appreciate that malfunctions happen, but I also appreciate that we customers should insist that a product this expensive shouldn't go bat-crap crazy once in a blue moon. I don't own a K-3, but my K-r had this problem...or at least similar symptoms. It became completely prohibitive to take photos with (but since fixed). I would have been a nervous wreck using that body in a professional setting, even with a backup.
Professional bodies (ie Nikon D4) costs 3 to 4 times the K3. I consider the K3 as a "cheap" body and thus I have two - and I recommand friends that are demanding with it to have 2 bodies. A friend comes back from a 3 month trip in Nepal, and he thanks me cause I encouraged him to get a second body. Of course during the trip he let the K3 fall down on the ground, so he was happy to have a backup. Even if the first K3 was fixed locally later on at Katmandu.
06-24-2014, 08:10 AM   #418
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QuoteOriginally posted by goubejp Quote
Doesnt' sound bad for me, as an engineer. The Mirror flop is a random failure, it is very difficult to fix cause there isn't scenario that allows to reproduce the problem and hence to test the fix. I myself encountered only once in february, and never again. They have to perform extensive, long duration tests to be sure that the fix works. They really can't afford to recall the K3s, apply the fix, and have users still reporting Mirror flop issues on a K3 after fix/retrofit

---------- Post added 06-24-2014 at 04:47 PM ----------



Professional bodies (ie Nikon D4) costs 3 to 4 times the K3. I consider the K3 as a "cheap" body and thus I have two - and I recommand friends that are demanding with it to have 2 bodies. A friend comes back from a 3 month trip in Nepal, and he thanks me cause I encouraged him to get a second body. Of course during the trip he let the K3 fall down on the ground, so he was happy to have a backup. Even if the first K3 was fixed locally later on at Katmandu.
Exactly, which is why I say this isn't a K-3 issue, it's an issue of professionalism. If you shoot enough, a camera is eventually going to fail, and it's up to you to deal with that professionally. Or a brand new $10,000 camera can be dropped, or fall off a table, or whatever. As mentioned, you only get one chance to do a wedding.

My cousin loved weddings, loved going to weddings and was a respected wedding photogpraher in the Seattle area, he never went to a wedding with less than two Hassleblads. And he could have paid for 2 K-3s with what he made from one shoot.

One of my colleagues at work made more at weddings than he did at his full time job. He himself kept 2 D4s nearby and an assistant doing candids with a 3rd.

If you imagine yourself in a professional situation, imagine yourself in a professional situation. Don't imagine yourself shooting a wedding with one K-3 or even one Hasselblad, or one Canon or one Nikon. That's an amateur situation.

Asked to do a wedding tomorrow, I'd be going with a K-3, a K-5 for back up, and probably my K-01 with a fast lens, for candids. And to me, because of my lack of pro-quality flash etc. I'd consider that an amateur set up. I'd go that way as a favour to the couple, not as a paid wedding photog. When my daughter had her wedding, we paid a guy, who had a professional set-up and did a fantastic job. I find it distressing that folks think they can just walk in with their K-3 and do a wedding.

Last edited by normhead; 06-24-2014 at 08:34 AM.
06-24-2014, 09:11 AM   #419
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If I bring 2 cameras to an event just to have a backup it does not matter if the camera acts up when you are about to shoot the kiss at the altar or the eagle catching a fish. The moment will be long gone before you have the reserv up to your eye...
06-24-2014, 09:25 AM   #420
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QuoteOriginally posted by Tjompen1968 Quote
If I bring 2 cameras to an event just to have a backup it does not matter if the camera acts up when you are about to shoot the kiss at the altar or the eagle catching a fish. The moment will be long gone before you have the reserv up to your eye...
That's not statistically as probable as a photo-bomber getting in your eagle shot.
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