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06-25-2014, 03:05 PM - 2 Likes   #436
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Let's not lose sight of the fact that Pentax has heard the message. The entire point of this thread was to assemble a valid list of users from PF who ahve experienced the problem in order to demonstrate to Pentax that this is more than just random noise. DRabbit did, the Forum responded, Pentax heard the message and apparently have provided a proposed fix.

I personally don't think this is an 'End-of-Days' problem nor a PentaxIsDoomed™ problem. Some of the hyperbole on this thread is astonishing. But this IS a small-sample, conditional, vexing fault, to which Pentax has responded. This has been a good effort by the OP and a good response (so far) by Pentax.

We needn't make it into something it isn't just to keep the emotions high - we should all HOPE this thread closes itself in a few weeks when the condition disappears.

06-25-2014, 04:11 PM   #437
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To complete any fix of a problem takes time, especially if it's so sporadic. Data must be accurate, sources verifiable. The fact Pentax team did it so quickly at least proves they:

• are listening
• are proud of their work
• want to make K-3 even better camera than it is
• respect all customers, not calling them names and incompetent (as some called Pentax team in relation to this issue).

End of story.
06-25-2014, 06:01 PM   #438
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Hey, I'm all for giving credit where it's due. I have said before this "fix" (that "resolves/reduces" the problem, as they said, not me) is a good thing... it's a step in the right direction.

But you'll excuse me if I get a little annoyed when people question me as if I'm a moron with things like "don't you have a backup camera?" A few here have been quick to attack me for even bringing it up, for starting this thread at all, for persisting in talking about this problem. Let's not forget, there might not be a fix at all if it hadn't been for raising the issue and assembling this list.

And it's seven months of this. I wouldn't exactly call that quick. I'll give them credit for addressing it, but I won't say I think it was fast. LOL
06-25-2014, 07:09 PM   #439
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It's nice to hear there is a fix coming in mid July. I think I would be able to survive until then. I was thinking I'd buy a used K5 II or s and return my K3 because I could get my full $ back and buy the K3 cheaper later when it stabilizes. In the meantime, I'm going to look for a K5 II or s so I have a backup. Wish I didn't sell my K-01 now so I could send the K3 in. I know how long CRIS has to wait for the dang part from Japan. It seems like an eternity(2 weeks). (If CRIS had the dang part in stock and could guarantee everyone that it would be fixed and turned around within 1-2 days and Pentax was offering a free cleaning and/or free shipping, this whole 'crazy' thing wouldn't be a big issue.)

I was going to send it in but now, I think I will wait until July, see how the firmware upgrade goes and hope my camera doesn't have other issues and if it does, I won't have to waste money and time shipping/servicing this twice.

Now I'm imagining a scenario that could have been where I had to use my backup(K-01) and I had just turned the K3 off doing the crazies. For 3 seconds, I'd be shooting RAW burst mode getting a measly 1 fps while it sounded like I was shooting 25 shutters/sec. I think this reason alone reminds me why I want a faster raw burst speed in the K5 II and that I have a new dilemma, return this K3 and wait for full frame or the next gen of mirrorless and use a K5II to hold me over and save money or get the K3 fixed and buy the K5II for a second camera. I only have a few days to decide...

EDIT: NVM, return period passed. I'm hanging on to K3 unless I want to resell which is not worth selling for less than the full refund price. I am with the K3 for the forseeable future unless something amazing comes along that can compete pricewise.


Last edited by airjames; 06-26-2014 at 11:07 AM.
06-25-2014, 07:23 PM   #440
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I asked a few questions of Ricoh (the last few days), and didn't really get any better answers, but in the interest of completeness, here's what I asked, and the responses:


My first email:

Hi folks,

Has the K3 mirror overrun problem been solved in a customer installable firmware update yet? I've just purchased the K3, and I wanted to make sure that I can get a fix for this problem before it happens. Thanks!



Ricoh response #1

Dear Andrew,

Thank you for contacting RICOH.

Not all K-3 cameras have the rapid mirror activation problem. In a camera that has this issue, occasionally, when shooting in either single-frame or time-lapse mode, the camera mirror will start moving rapidly up and down separate from the shutter opening and closing. Turning off the camera does not stop the "mirror flop" and the only way to restore the camera to normal operation is to turn off the camera, remove the battery, then put the battery back in and turn the camera back on. This issue can occur with a fully or partially-charged battery and with/without a battery grip attached.

If your camera should exhibit this malfunction you should return your camera directly to RICOH Imaging Company at the address listed below for examination.

RICOH Service Department
250 North 54th St.
Chandler, AZ 85226



Being rather stubborn, I responded:



Thank you for your response. So, as of yet, there is no user-installable
firmware update for the issue (I assume the fix is not in 1.0.3). Do you
have a specific serial number range that is affected? I have seen
reports that it is in the 482XXXX to 492XXXX (black bodies) range. Can
you confirm that that is what you've been seeing? I take delivery of a
K3 tomorrow, and, while I am not overly concerned about the issue, it
does sound like something that I'd like to take care of, and I'm trying
to be proactive.


Ricoh response #2:

Dear Andrew,

Thank you for contacting RICOH.

The "mirror flop" issue has affected a relatively small number of the K-3 cameras. We do not have a range of camera serial numbers that would identify which cameras may have this issue. However, if your K-3 exhibits this problem our shop does have a corrective adjustment to address it. if necessary, I would recommend (for US residents only) you return your camera directly to RICOH Imaging Company at the address listed below for examination.

RICOH Service Department
250 North 54th St.
Chandler, AZ 85226

Last edited by asharpe; 06-25-2014 at 07:32 PM.
06-25-2014, 07:29 PM   #441
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QuoteOriginally posted by DRabbit Quote
Hey, I'm all for giving credit where it's due. I have said before this "fix" (that "resolves/reduces" the problem, as they said, not me) is a good thing... it's a step in the right direction.
They have addressed the problem and are repairing cameras. How is that a "step in the right direction"? When you bought the camera, it came with a warranty and repairing or replacing the camera is all that Pentax owes you should you have a problem.

QuoteQuote:
Let's not forget, there might not be a fix at all if it hadn't been for raising the issue and assembling this list.
Ridiculous nonsense. What do you think Ricoh would have done with failed cameras that were returned, thrown them in the trash and told the owners that they were out of luck?

QuoteQuote:
And it's seven months of this. I wouldn't exactly call that quick. I'll give them credit for addressing it, but I won't say I think it was fast. LOL
How many weeks or months did you play camera tester rather than returning the cameras? If you were one of the earliest to encounter this problem, your weeks/months of of playing camera troubleshooter delayed getting samples of this problem to the real Engineers and Technicians that could fix the problem.

IMO folks like you that spent months playing camera/tester/troubleshooter and encouraging others to do the same instead of promptly returning the problem cameras DELAYED getting a fix in place.

Ray

Last edited by Ray Pulley; 06-27-2014 at 06:48 PM.
06-26-2014, 07:17 AM   #442
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Look, I totally understand where DRabbit is coming from. So much so I'd never even consider shooting a wedding (I'd be more concerned about human--not equipment--failure.) At this point, I'm satisfied that Ricoh is prepared to address the problem and I'll take them up on that if it ever gets to the point where I'm really concerned--I'm an amateur and miss shots for all sorts of reasons. There's no doubt in my mind that, by collecting reports of the issue along with situational information, this thread has facilitated resolution of the problem. So thumbs up to DRabbit for starting it.
06-26-2014, 09:35 AM   #443
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Still waiting DRabbit... how many frames have you lost due to mirror flap?

As I said, I've had it happen once and it didn't cost me an image. But your cases seem to be more severe than mine.

You also might want to look at...

http://photo.net/canon-eos-digital-camera-forum/00SNBR

or this
http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2012/09/lensrentals-repair-data-january-july-2012

Notice failures per week...
Canon 5dmkIII 155
Nikon D700 109

What if one of those failures happened right when the bride was being kissed?

You can pay a lot more than you do for a K-3 and have failures...


Last edited by normhead; 06-26-2014 at 09:44 AM.
06-26-2014, 10:24 AM   #444
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I had it happen to me today. In front of clients, who fortunately thought the sounds my camera was making were funny and I tried not to let on it was a problem. I've had my K3 since it was released; this is the first time. I think I will sit tight for the July firmware update and see what happens.
06-26-2014, 02:54 PM   #445
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No mirror flap until today

Was shooting outside without battery grip and with a battery fully charged sunday, with about 50 pics on it (no flash), and 3 bars (battery full) reported by k-3. Took a shot and then sounded like rapid continuous shooting at fastest rate (about 8-10 / sec). Continued despite no shutter button press and wouldn't stop when power turned off. Removed battery and it stopped. Reinstalled battery and has been working fine since (another 20-30 shots). Was Tv mode. Shutter set to continuous M at the time. Sounded exactly like the videos that have been posted.

Battery is D-L190 SN 201208
Camera purchased in Feb from BH SN 48303xx
Shutter count on camera is less than 1000 shots

06-26-2014, 03:40 PM   #446
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QuoteOriginally posted by NicoleC Quote
I had it happen to me today. In front of clients, who fortunately thought the sounds my camera was making were funny and I tried not to let on it was a problem. I've had my K3 since it was released; this is the first time. I think I will sit tight for the July firmware update and see what happens.
It essentially sound like my Buddy's canon when he's shooting a high frame rate.... it's not a completely unknown sound.
06-26-2014, 03:56 PM - 1 Like   #447
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Still waiting DRabbit... how many frames have you lost due to mirror flap?
This seems to have been stated pretty clearly upthread, but DRabbit (as part of her job) shoots timelapse all the time. This means not only that she shoots a TON more frames than even pretty hardcore photogs, but also that she needs the camera to run reliably unattended. And when it locks up, she loses not just one frame, but a great many frames. And this was happening to her. Regularly. Of course you're right that other (non-Pentax) hardware fails too, and I'm sure other statistically unlikely events regularly ruin important shots/shoots. I don't think that this lessens the pain very much when you get bit by the mirror-flop issue. Since she shoots so many frames, her work was being regularly affected by this issue, and she took it upon herself to coordinate the community about it. She has also stated that she's been in contact with Pentax tech support pretty much from the start.

QuoteOriginally posted by dadipentak Quote
There's no doubt in my mind that, by collecting reports of the issue along with situational information, this thread has facilitated resolution of the problem. So thumbs up to DRabbit for starting it.
+1 to that!
06-26-2014, 04:06 PM   #448
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QuoteOriginally posted by tram57 Quote
Was shooting outside without battery grip and with a battery fully charged sunday, with about 50 pics on it (no flash), and 3 bars (battery full) reported by k-3. Took a shot and then sounded like rapid continuous shooting at fastest rate (about 8-10 / sec). Continued despite no shutter button press and wouldn't stop when power turned off. Removed battery and it stopped. Reinstalled battery and has been working fine since (another 20-30 shots). Was Tv mode. Shutter set to continuous M at the time. Sounded exactly like the videos that have been posted.

Battery is D-L190 SN 201208
Camera purchased in Feb from BH SN 48303xx
Shutter count on camera is less than 1000 shots

by the way firmware version 1.02 and camera had been in the sun outside (black body) so quite warm. I mention this only because of previous post about possible tight tolerances of shutter as potential contributor to the problem.
06-27-2014, 03:54 AM - 2 Likes   #449
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asharpe: Interesting exchange. Thanks for sharing it.

QuoteOriginally posted by Doundounba Quote
This seems to have been stated pretty clearly upthread, but DRabbit (as part of her job) shoots timelapse all the time. This means not only that she shoots a TON more frames than even pretty hardcore photogs, but also that she needs the camera to run reliably unattended. And when it locks up, she loses not just one frame, but a great many frames. And this was happening to her. Regularly. Of course you're right that other (non-Pentax) hardware fails too, and I'm sure other statistically unlikely events regularly ruin important shots/shoots. I don't think that this lessens the pain very much when you get bit by the mirror-flop issue. Since she shoots so many frames, her work was being regularly affected by this issue, and she took it upon herself to coordinate the community about it. She has also stated that she's been in contact with Pentax tech support pretty much from the start.

+1 to that!
Thanks for the nice summary and support Doundounba


QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Still waiting DRabbit... how many frames have you lost due to mirror flap?
As I said, I've had it happen once and it didn't cost me an image. But your cases seem to be more severe than mine.
You want a number? I can't give you one, but it's a lot. Not to mention the inconvenience it caused. Admittedly, some of that was my own fault for holding onto the camera for so long and working with Pentax to try to track the cause of the issue.

Pointing to other cameras that have problems is a pointless exercise. First off, Canon and Nikon are used SO MUCH MORE than Pentax in the professional arena that's it's almost ridiculous to try to compare. Second, the K3 didn't FAIL COMPLETELY for me, so while some might track the mirror-flapping issue as a failure, others would not.

QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
You can pay a lot more than you do for a K-3 and have failures...
Your point being what exactly? As stated over and over and over again, I could also pay a lot less and not have any problems at all. The K5-II and IIs perform exactly as expected. Not one time have I had the camera lockup or get the mirror-crazies. They have been flawless.


QuoteOriginally posted by dadipentak Quote
Look, I totally understand where DRabbit is coming from. So much so I'd never even consider shooting a wedding (I'd be more concerned about human--not equipment--failure.) At this point, I'm satisfied that Ricoh is prepared to address the problem and I'll take them up on that if it ever gets to the point where I'm really concerned--I'm an amateur and miss shots for all sorts of reasons. There's no doubt in my mind that, by collecting reports of the issue along with situational information, this thread has facilitated resolution of the problem. So thumbs up to DRabbit for starting it.
Thanks Dadipentak


QuoteOriginally posted by Ray Pulley Quote
They have addressed the problem and are repairing cameras. How is that a "step in the right direction"? When you bought the camera, it came with a warranty and repairing or replacing the camera is all that Pentax owes you should you have a problem.
I say a "step in the right direction" because of the wording of the correspondence... it has stated "resolve/reduce", and the "reduce" is the part that makes me wonder if it's completely a fix. The correspondence I received also said they are still testing and evaluating.


QuoteOriginally posted by Ray Pulley Quote
Ridiculous BS. What do you think Ricoh would have done with failed cameras that were returned, thrown them in the trash and told the owners that they were out of luck?
So fine, you're not convinced that me talking with Pentax/Ricoh USA about this issue directly for 4 months and reports of the issue here and my effort to get them to see this as a problem has had any impact at all. You're entitled to that opinion.

You obviously haven't followed the story because what you're suggesting is exactly what happened. I had two K3 bodies with the problem and Pentax never requested EITHER OF THEM back directly. When I exchanged/returned them, they went through the retailer's normal return procedure. They were not flagged as having "mirror-flapping" or sent back to Pentax in any special way. It actually surprised me that Pentax didn't request them back, as they were bodies KNOWN to have the problem. But they didn't. And this was after months of communicating with them about it. So yeah, they just got "thrown in the trash" - or just as well since they were returned through normal retail procedures.

QuoteOriginally posted by Ray Pulley Quote
How many weeks or months did you play camera tester rather than returning the cameras? If you were one of the earliest to encounter this problem, your weeks/months of of playing camera troubleshooter delayed getting samples of this problem to the real Engineers and Technicians that could fix the problem.
Apparently you don't know the whole story. I wasn't just playing tester all on my own for the hell of it. I reported the problem directly to Pentax/Ricoh USA in early December. I played tester for two reasons... one, I didn't want to give up the K3 because I liked it in so many other ways... and two, because they were asking me questions about what caused the problem, so we tried to figure it out. They didn't ask me to send it in for service because they couldn't fix something they didn't know how to. And I didn't play tester on Saturdays when I have nothing better today, these were real-world problems that would occur at real photo shoots. I would have the problem and report it to them. They'd ask questions. I'd answer. They'd suggest something. I'd try it. I'd have the problem again and report it. Rinse, repeat. They didn't even suggest I exchange the first K3 until February.

And by the way, some of us have an actual life to live, ya know with jobs to attend to and families to care for and mothers having emergency surgery and so on. So no, this didn't all take place in a week's time. I would go to a photo shoot and have the problem. I'd email them. A day or two later they would reply. They'd ask questions. A day or two later I'd answer. A week later they'd reply with suggestions for me. There'd be phone calls. There'd be suggestions. I'd try their suggestions a few days or a week later at my next photo shoot and report back, then again, wait for them to respond. It takes time.

QuoteOriginally posted by Ray Pulley Quote
IMO folks like you that spent months playing camera/tester/troubleshooter and encouraging others to do the same instead of promptly returning the problem cameras DELAYED getting a fix in place.
And folks like you Ray, have nothing better to do than attack people on the internet for no reason what-so-ever. You obviously don't know the whole story, so maybe you should have found out before you decided I somehow caused a delay in resolving the problem. Between the beginning of December and the end of March I reported a TON of information to Pentax/Ricoh USA directly... and it wasn't until March, that I returned the second K3 body because Pentax USA told me to. It wasn'tt until March that I started this thread to begin counting up others people who had the problem (at the suggestion of another member). It wasn't until April that I left a somewhat negative review on Amazon. It wasn't until April that I wrote an article about the issue. From the beginning I was patient and methodical, and in touch with Pentax directly about the problem.

Based on the fact that some other Pentax bodies have exhibited this issue for years (in some form) and based on their history with the SDM failures... if you think Pentax would have done anything but remain silent on this without pressure, well good for you. Keep being a blind fan-boy. As a dedicated Pentax user now for years, I chose not to remain silent. I want to see the issue put to rest once and for all.

Last edited by DRabbit; 06-27-2014 at 04:25 AM.
06-27-2014, 04:54 AM   #450
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Many companies don't publicly admit there's a problem until they have a fix, Apple being the most noticeable. The issue for the company is, how do you keep confidence in your brand while your engineering people come up with a fix. From a consumer standpoint, they don't care about the brand, they just want their camera to work. Customers and manufacturers have different agendas.

Personally, my take is given what you do, Pentax should just give you your money back and take back the cameras. It's not suited to what you do, in it's current incarnation.
But, camera companies , car companies etc. never do what I say they should do, so don't hold your breath. I'm a little concerned about Pentax's approach to this... if you were part of the loop on trouble shooting this problem, you should have been paid for your time. I guess a bit of forum credibility is all you're going to get, although a couple of properly functioning cameras would be nice. They could at least use your cameras for a test run of the update software, since you seem to be such a willing tester. Maybe they'll put you one the list of people who get to pre-test new models.

Maybe next time their's supposed to be a forum give away, Adam can just send something your way... but hey... like I said, nothing ever happens the way I think it should...
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