K3 Crazy Mirror Sickness (Mirror Flapping Lockup) - Report Yours Here!

WestCoastGuy · 08-02-2014, 06:37 PM

I've had my K20d for some 6 years now and narry a single shutter issue as described for the K3. Lots of.. well -many- time lapse star shots, evening shots & trying out new technique shots.

I'm looking at moving up to a K3 soon-ish, when a reliable fix for this issue gets reported. Yes, I've seen that the firmware fix seems to address this but not 100% ??

In the meanwhile, off I go with my trusted K20D for some summertime shots!

BillO · 08-03-2014, 02:02 PM

Originally posted by DRabbit

There were reports of the K5 also having mirror-flapping or mirror-overrun issues. ...<snip>... This is one of the reasons I started to speak out about the K3. I knew some of the older bodies had the issue, and then the K3 did, but three flagship models from last year didn't have it...

FWIW, I can personally say that the *istD, K10D and K7 (all flagships during their debut) I have owned and all with 100K+ shutter releases have never had a problem like this. Or a lock-up.

stevebrot · 08-03-2014, 04:42 PM

Originally posted by BillO

FWIW, I can personally say that the *istD, K10D and K7 (all flagships during their debut) I have owned and all with 100K+ shutter releases have never had a problem like this. Or a lock-up.

That may be because Pentax dSLRs prior to the K-5 had no history of a pattern of mirror or shutter issues.

As I remember, the classic mirror flop (a.k.a. double slap...mirror flips twice...also various other mirror control issues) occurred over a limited range of K-5 serial numbers first reported in 2011. The cause was traceable to a defective hardware subsystem (bad batch) that was replaced under warranty. Similar symptoms were noted on the K-r with additional problems described as random mirror activity not associated with shutter use also being reported. With a few users the mirror would flap when any button was pushed. Some of the problems on the K-r were traced to power issues (bad batteries/holders). A few users only had the problem when certain lenses were mounted (?!). I don't know if the issues were ever fully characterized or resolved on the K-r, but the remedy involved replacement of the camera's main board and/or mirror box.

It should be noted that the K-5 technology was based on the earlier K-7 model and that the K-r was based on the earlier K-m. Both the K-5 and the K-r were Pentax products designed and made under Hoya ownership while the K-3 is a Pentax-branded Ricoh product. Ricoh purchased Pentax in late 2011 so the earlier K-5 and K-r issues were not the result of Ricoh design or manufacturing process.

To the best of my knowledge, the following models had no reported pattern of mirror issues: K-5II, K-5IIs, K-30, and all models prior to the K-5.

As noted on this thread and other places in PF and on the Web, a number of K-3 users have experienced what has been described as a "runnaway", "crazy", "machine gun", "uncontrolled", etc. mirror behavior. The symptoms are different than the K-5 "flop", but similar to what some K-r users described a few years ago. The K-3 issue is being addressed through adjustment of settings in firmware at the service facility.

To complete the rogue's gallery, some K-50 users have had a problem that has been labeled "mirror flap", but is basically a full system freeze with the mirror in the up position. The issue is being addressed by Ricoh by replacement of the mirror box and/or other drive components. No, it is not another mirror flop/flap issue.

Summary? Prior to the K-5, mirror control issues were essentially absent from the Pentax line. Three models in the last three years (K-5, K-r, and K-3) have had reported mirror control issues. The three models represent three distinct model lines with three different sets of symptoms and remedies. While it is unlikely that the three share a common cause, it does point up to (IMHO) a distinct blind spot in Pentax (initially) and Ricoh's (now) QA efforts, though it is difficult to say how they should test for something that is difficult to demonstrate even in known bad bodies.

Steve

P.S. The descriptions above are not exhaustive. The data are widely scattered.

NicoleC · 08-03-2014, 06:48 PM

Originally posted by stevebrot

Summary? Prior to the K-5, mirror control issues were essentially absent from the Pentax line. Three models in the last three years (K-5, K-r, and K-3) have had reported mirror control issues. The three models represent three distinct model lines with three different sets of symptoms and remedies. While it is unlikely that the three share a common cause, it does point up to (IMHO) a distinct blind spot in Pentax (initially) and Ricoh's (now) QA efforts, though it is difficult to say how they should test for something that is difficult to demonstrate even in known bad bodies.

My K-x had/has the same problem. It only happened twice, and those events were later in it's lifespan, when it was also doing some other weird things like shooting black frames, but the "my camera is going crazy" incidents happened on their own without any other symptoms. The suggested prognosis here on PF was that I probably had a bad unit to begin with, but only had the problems occur when I started shooting a lot more frames.

I doubt it's the same issue (for many of the reasons you outlined), but there may be other models with mirror control sickness that have previously gone unreported or were handled offline.

stevebrot · 08-03-2014, 07:20 PM

Originally posted by NicoleC

there may be other models with mirror control sickness that have previously gone unreported or were handled offline.

Undoubtedly! That is one of the strange things about Internet rumors. It may well be that all Pentax dSLRs back to the *ist D suffered from a significant percentage of cameras with mirror control issues or maybe not! Much depends on whether there is a critical number of effected users contributing to the same forum at the same time.

Say a problem effects 1% of a particular model, but the problem comes up at some random point during the first three years of use. Chances are that problem will never be worthy of discussion here on PF. If, however, that same 1% all started having the problem on a particular date (say some problem with the internal calendar), there would be an instant outcry as multiple users noted the same issue in a very short period of time.

Steve

(...sorry Amy for hijacking your thread...I will go home now...)

(...hmmm...floppy mirror as meme...)

Idnarb · 08-04-2014, 01:25 PM

I purchased my K3 in February of this year (SN 483XXXX). No problems whatsoever until 8-2-14. I was taking photos at sunset. I had taken less than 20 shots and the camera went crazy. I had to pop the battery in order to get it to stop. Full battery, no grip. Shooting in M w/ 50mm 1.4. I don't know what else I can add... it was completely unexpected. I have not updated to the 1.10 firmware yet. Really, really disappointed. I thought I had escaped getting one of the K3's with this problem.

Adrian Roman · 08-13-2014, 09:07 AM

1.10 firmware. Full battery. Single shot. Tamron 70-200 2.8. Sunny and dry. Happened once. I had to remove the battery to make it stop.

Paul the Sunman · 08-13-2014, 11:27 AM

Judging by reports on this thread, is it fair to say that firmware 1.10 doesn't fix the mirror flap problem, but it does greatly reduce the frequency of occurrence to a trickle?

gosman · 08-13-2014, 11:42 AM

Paul- not sure you can make that assumption.

Paul the Sunman · 08-13-2014, 12:16 PM

Neither am I, but it's starting to look like a plausible hypothesis. I think we've only had 2 reports on this thread of it happening with v1.10.

gosman · 08-13-2014, 12:56 PM

I've had a couple of shut downs only. Will be using the camera hard the next few weeks. Will be good test.

Adrian Roman · 08-13-2014, 10:20 PM

I never had the issue before 1.10.

Probably the reports with 1.10 are few because it's quite new and not all people updated to it (besides the short time interval for testing).

vrolok · 08-14-2014, 09:01 AM

Just happened, couple of mins ago, to me for the second time. Latest firm. Doing nothing unusual....

**Dougg** · 08-14-2014, 04:20 PM

Originally posted by vrolok

Just happened, couple of mins ago, to me for the second time. Latest firm. Doing nothing unusual....

Manual focus?

vrolok · 08-14-2014, 11:09 PM

Originally posted by Dougg

Manual focus?

AF, A priority, single shot, original battery nearly fully loaded, no grip, DA18-135, roughly 5000 actuations, they were ca. 1000 the first time, external temperature ca 15 degree with a wee of rain. And latest firm.
Will definitely send it to the technical service for the fix.

08-03-2014, 04:42 PM	#513
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by BillO FWIW, I can personally say that the istD, K10D and K7 (all flagships during their debut) I have owned and all with 100K+ shutter releases have never had a problem like this. Or a lock-up. That may be because Pentax dSLRs prior to the K-5 had no history of a pattern of mirror or shutter issues. As I remember, the classic mirror flop (a.k.a. double slap...mirror flips twice...also various other mirror control issues) occurred over a limited range of K-5 serial numbers first reported in 2011. The cause was traceable to a defective hardware subsystem (bad batch) that was replaced under warranty. Similar symptoms were noted on the K-r with additional problems described as random mirror activity not associated with shutter use also being reported. With a few users the mirror would flap when any button was pushed. Some of the problems on the K-r were traced to power issues (bad batteries/holders). A few users only had the problem when certain lenses were mounted (?!). I don't know if the issues were ever fully characterized or resolved on the K-r, but the remedy involved replacement of the camera's main board and/or mirror box. It should be noted that the K-5 technology was based on the earlier K-7 model and that the K-r was based on the earlier K-m. Both the K-5 and the K-r were Pentax products designed and made under Hoya ownership while the K-3 is a Pentax-branded Ricoh product. Ricoh purchased Pentax in late 2011 so the earlier K-5 and K-r issues were not the result of Ricoh design or manufacturing process. To the best of my knowledge, the following models had no reported pattern of mirror issues: K-5II, K-5IIs, K-30, and all models prior to the K-5. As noted on this thread and other places in PF and on the Web, a number of K-3 users have experienced what has been described as a "runnaway", "crazy", "machine gun", "uncontrolled", etc. mirror behavior. The symptoms are different than the K-5 "flop", but similar to what some K-r users described a few years ago. The K-3 issue is being addressed through adjustment of settings in firmware at the service facility. To complete the rogue's gallery, some K-50 users have had a problem that has been labeled "mirror flap", but is basically a full system freeze with the mirror in the up position. The issue is being addressed by Ricoh by replacement of the mirror box and/or other drive components. No, it is not another mirror flop/flap issue. Summary?* Prior to the K-5, mirror control issues were essentially absent from the Pentax line. Three models in the last three years (K-5, K-r, and K-3) have had reported mirror control issues. The three models represent three distinct model lines with three different sets of symptoms and remedies. While it is unlikely that the three share a common cause, it does point up to (IMHO) a distinct blind spot in Pentax (initially) and Ricoh's (now) QA efforts, though it is difficult to say how they should test for something that is difficult to demonstrate even in known bad bodies. Steve P.S. The descriptions above are not exhaustive. The data are widely scattered. Last edited by stevebrot; 08-03-2014 at 05:59 PM. Reason: Corrected dates

08-04-2014, 01:25 PM	#516
Idnarb New Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Posts: 1	Add me to the list... I purchased my K3 in February of this year (SN 483XXXX). No problems whatsoever until 8-2-14. I was taking photos at sunset. I had taken less than 20 shots and the camera went crazy. I had to pop the battery in order to get it to stop. Full battery, no grip. Shooting in M w/ 50mm 1.4. I don't know what else I can add... it was completely unexpected. I have not updated to the 1.10 firmware yet. Really, really disappointed. I thought I had escaped getting one of the K3's with this problem.

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08-02-2014, 06:37 PM	#511
WestCoastGuy New Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Victoria, BC Posts: 22	I've had my K20d for some 6 years now and narry a single shutter issue as described for the K3. Lots of.. well -many- time lapse star shots, evening shots & trying out new technique shots. I'm looking at moving up to a K3 soon-ish, when a reliable fix for this issue gets reported. Yes, I've seen that the firmware fix seems to address this but not 100% ?? In the meanwhile, off I go with my trusted K20D for some summertime shots!

08-03-2014, 02:02 PM	#512
BillO Forum Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Ontario Photos: Albums Posts: 89	Originally posted by DRabbit There were reports of the K5 also having mirror-flapping or mirror-overrun issues. ...<snip>... This is one of the reasons I started to speak out about the K3. I knew some of the older bodies had the issue, and then the K3 did, but three flagship models from last year didn't have it... FWIW, I can personally say that the *istD, K10D and K7 (all flagships during their debut) I have owned and all with 100K+ shutter releases have never had a problem like this. Or a lock-up.

08-03-2014, 06:48 PM	#514
NicoleC Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Madison, AL Posts: 448	Originally posted by stevebrot Summary? Prior to the K-5, mirror control issues were essentially absent from the Pentax line. Three models in the last three years (K-5, K-r, and K-3) have had reported mirror control issues. The three models represent three distinct model lines with three different sets of symptoms and remedies. While it is unlikely that the three share a common cause, it does point up to (IMHO) a distinct blind spot in Pentax (initially) and Ricoh's (now) QA efforts, though it is difficult to say how they should test for something that is difficult to demonstrate even in known bad bodies. My K-x had/has the same problem. It only happened twice, and those events were later in it's lifespan, when it was also doing some other weird things like shooting black frames, but the "my camera is going crazy" incidents happened on their own without any other symptoms. The suggested prognosis here on PF was that I probably had a bad unit to begin with, but only had the problems occur when I started shooting a lot more frames. I doubt it's the *same* issue (for many of the reasons you outlined), but there may be other models with mirror control sickness that have previously gone unreported or were handled offline.

08-03-2014, 07:20 PM	#515
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by NicoleC there may be other models with mirror control sickness that have previously gone unreported or were handled offline. Undoubtedly! That is one of the strange things about Internet rumors. It may well be that all Pentax dSLRs back to the *ist D suffered from a significant percentage of cameras with mirror control issues or maybe not! Much depends on whether there is a critical number of effected users contributing to the same forum at the same time. Say a problem effects 1% of a particular model, but the problem comes up at some random point during the first three years of use. Chances are that problem will never be worthy of discussion here on PF. If, however, that same 1% all started having the problem on a particular date (say some problem with the internal calendar), there would be an instant outcry as multiple users noted the same issue in a very short period of time. Steve (...sorry Amy for hijacking your thread...I will go home now...) (...hmmm...floppy mirror as meme...)

08-13-2014, 09:07 AM	#517
Adrian Roman New Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Oradea Posts: 11	1.10 firmware. Full battery. Single shot. Tamron 70-200 2.8. Sunny and dry. Happened once. I had to remove the battery to make it stop.

08-13-2014, 11:27 AM	#518
Paul the Sunman Pentaxian Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Melbourne Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,846	Judging by reports on this thread, is it fair to say that firmware 1.10 doesn't fix the mirror flap problem, but it does greatly reduce the frequency of occurrence to a trickle?

08-13-2014, 11:42 AM	#519
gosman Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: Texas Posts: 263	Paul- not sure you can make that assumption.

08-13-2014, 12:16 PM	#520
Paul the Sunman Pentaxian Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Melbourne Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,846	Neither am I, but it's starting to look like a plausible hypothesis. I think we've only had 2 reports on this thread of it happening with v1.10.

08-13-2014, 12:56 PM	#521
gosman Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: Texas Posts: 263	I've had a couple of shut downs only. Will be using the camera hard the next few weeks. Will be good test.

08-13-2014, 10:20 PM	#522
Adrian Roman New Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Oradea Posts: 11	I never had the issue before 1.10. Probably the reports with 1.10 are few because it's quite new and not all people updated to it (besides the short time interval for testing).

08-14-2014, 09:01 AM	#523
vrolok Senior Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Caesaraugusta Posts: 104	Just happened, couple of mins ago, to me for the second time. Latest firm. Doing nothing unusual....

08-14-2014, 04:20 PM	#524
Dougg Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Central Washington Photos: Albums Posts: 293	Originally posted by vrolok Just happened, couple of mins ago, to me for the second time. Latest firm. Doing nothing unusual.... Manual focus?

08-14-2014, 11:09 PM	#525
vrolok Senior Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Caesaraugusta Posts: 104	Originally posted by Dougg Manual focus? AF, A priority, single shot, original battery nearly fully loaded, no grip, DA18-135, roughly 5000 actuations, they were ca. 1000 the first time, external temperature ca 15 degree with a wee of rain. And latest firm. Will definitely send it to the technical service for the fix.