K3 Crazy Mirror Sickness (Mirror Flapping Lockup) - Report Yours Here!

totsmuyco · 07-29-2014, 03:02 AM

Originally posted by DRabbit

Hey, not to be argumentative, but this is part of where my problem lies with Pentax/Ricoh. For me, with two bodies, the problem was not rare or intermittent. It was actually rare for me NOT to run into the problem. As long as I activated the shutter at least 4000-5000 times in a day (doing time-lapse), I would almost certainly have the mirror-flapping occur... like nearly 95% of the time. This was true through two K3 bodies.

AND, much more frustratingly, I was in touch with Pentax directly through this time. At nearly every time-lapse shoot I went (at least one per week), I would report to them that I had the problem occur AGAIN. So they easily had access to my cameras and information. I wanted them to fix this problem. They never requested I send my K3 in to them when they approved the first exchange (through a local retailer). When the second body had the identical problem, they never requested that one back either. When I finally got approval to return the second one, I offered to keep testing as long as they would let me hold onto the K3 body to do so even after giving me the monetary credit, but they didn't want to do that. I would have easily let them hold onto a credit card number if they wanted insurance.

So, my point is, if you run the K3 heavily, I think it's rather simple to reproduce the problem. When the company has access to someone willing to do heavy testing in the real world and report back, they should take them up on it as much as possible.

People who don't use their K3 heavily, obviously, don't want to push their camera to reproduce the problem, and I don't blame them. But people who do, heavy users in the pro and amateur arena alike, could easily run into the mirror-flapping... and not intermittently at all. The heavier the use, the more likely to run into the issue.

I realize my shooting situation is unique, and I ran into the problem a whole lot more than most people ever will... but that doesn't make it an insignificant issue. It will keep me from buying a K3 again until I know it's fixed for sure... not through rumors and misinformation. At this point I'm exploring other brands because I think it's sad that the Q10 was able to run for 12000 shutter actuations in one day without a glitch... and that the multiple K5-II and IIs bodies I've shot thousands and thousands of shots with could be so rock solid, but I couldn't expect the same from two most current, expensive, "flagship" K3s.

Pentax/Ricoh and many of you at this point want me to go away, and likely that will happen eventually (yes, I heard some of you cheering LOL). But when it does it will be because I finally gave up on Pentax completely and switched to another brand. It won't come down to who produces the better camera because I'm not stupid... I realize that cameras aren't perfect... it will come down to their inability or lack of desire to be transparent about the issue. I can't have faith in a company that won't address its most avid of fans, (except behind the scenes in dark corners). And believe it or not, I'm one of the biggest Pentax fans you could meet.

Amy I certainly agree with you. I'm sure if they asked for your unit they would have easily identified the problem. However, I think they already know where the problem lies and still don't have a sure fix for it. Like you, I'm not buying one until there is a sure fix.

derekkite · 07-29-2014, 07:16 AM

Originally posted by pinbalwyz

More than 1 person has purchased 2 or more K3's and found the mirror flap problem in both. Ricoh is not trying to isolate the problem. They're stone walling it. Anyone plagued with this problem deserves a NEW unit because the manufacturing defect existed ab initio. They won't get it, of course, from Ricoh. All hi-tech manufactured electronic goods will experience a % of defects. Those can be corrected. What cannot be corrected is a company without the commitment to its customers they deserve. That's a character problem not easily resolved.

From what I understand the problem has a fix. Send it in for repair. Have we heard from anyone who has done that yet?

I have one body which fluttered twice. There were other odd instabilities from time to time, never repeated but just a bit flakey. It has been stable since 1.10 under very heavy usage.

karro · 07-29-2014, 08:38 AM

heyy, pinbalwyz, you know only one song, but you do know it well, eh?

stevebrot · 07-29-2014, 11:06 AM

Originally posted by karro

heyy, pinbalwyz, you know only one song, but you do know it well, eh?

The big question is whether he has sent the camera to Ricoh. If you don't attempt to get satisfaction, you (well) won't get satisfaction.

Steve

---------- Post added 07-29-14 at 11:15 AM ----------

Originally posted by DRabbit

Pentax/Ricoh and many of you at this point want me to go away

Not me. I very much appreciate the effort you have put into quantifying reports of this issue as well as keeping track of Ricoh's efforts to implement a fix. For sure the problem is not as pervasive as the initial woes of the K-5 (mirror flap and sensor stains), but it exists and it is good to see that Ricoh is being responsive.

Steve

**Dougg** · 07-29-2014, 12:26 PM

I just moved from the "not me" column to the "it happened to mine too" side. Disappointing. Photos immediately before and after look ok.

K-3 purchased March 2014.
FW: v1.10
Mode: Auto, with manual-focus "A" lens
Battery: original one in body
No grip
SN: 4920462

DRabbit, thanks for your dedication and work on this issue!

Doug

Uluru · 07-30-2014, 06:20 PM

Originally posted by Dougg

I just moved from the "not me" column to the "it happened to mine too" side. Disappointing. Photos immediately before and after look ok.
K-3 purchased March 2014.
FW: v1.10...
[/COLOR][/LEFT]

Imagine how rare that camera will be in 20 years from now; a K-3 with a hiccup. That does not happen a lot. That's a keeper, and the price in collector's market will skyrocket.

markf · 07-31-2014, 06:43 AM

What's with Pentax and their mirrors. My LX had "sticky mirror" after almost 20 years of use which was common for older LX's, but at least that was after many years of use, not right out of the box. I traded it in to Adorama for a K5II and now the K3 has mirror flap problems. Fortunately my new K3 is issue free so far.

asharpe · 08-01-2014, 11:24 AM

Originally posted by markf

What's with Pentax and their mirrors.

My K3 is fine (for the time being) but I don't shoot interval, and that seems to be a running (or "overrunning") theme here. However, my old K100D had something that the technicians called a "mirror pre-fire", where the camera would flap the mirror several times, sometimes with the shutter release, and sometimes using the green button to meter with a manual lens. It always happened with manual lenses, never with a lens that made use of the contacts on the body. I took it in for repair, they claimed they "fixed" it -- replacing a logic board, if I recall -- but the problem came right back a few weeks later (I assume they didn't try it with a manual lens, but I did mention that to them). I finally gave the camera to someone who didn't use manual lenses. My K20D also had the same sort of "mirror pre-fire" a few times, too. So, yes, it does seem that their shutter/mirror firmware/logic gates/whatever has been plaguing them for a long time. But as far as camera manufacturer problems, it's a lot better than oil splatters on the sensor.

**DRabbit** · 08-02-2014, 06:32 AM

Originally posted by asharpe

My K3 is fine (for the time being) but I don't shoot interval, and that seems to be a running (or "overrunning") theme here. However, my old K100D had something that the technicians called a "mirror pre-fire", where the camera would flap the mirror several times, sometimes with the shutter release, and sometimes using the green button to meter with a manual lens. It always happened with manual lenses, never with a lens that made use of the contacts on the body. I took it in for repair, they claimed they "fixed" it -- replacing a logic board, if I recall -- but the problem came right back a few weeks later (I assume they didn't try it with a manual lens, but I did mention that to them). I finally gave the camera to someone who didn't use manual lenses. My K20D also had the same sort of "mirror pre-fire" a few times, too. So, yes, it does seem that their shutter/mirror firmware/logic gates/whatever has been plaguing them for a long time. But as far as camera manufacturer problems, it's a lot better than oil splatters on the sensor.

Interval is not the running theme. Even though that's what I was doing when I ran into it so often, many of the members were not shooting interval/timelapse at all.

There were reports of the K5 also having mirror-flapping or mirror-overrun issues. I've read reports on the with the K30, Kr, K20D (not always identical symptoms, but certainly crazy mirror flapping). However, I never had the problem with the K5-II and I ran that right to 115,000 shutter actuations. I have two K5-IIs bodies, one is at 75,000 and the other at 85,000 shutter actuations and neither had had a single problem. This is one of the reasons I started to speak out about the K3. I knew some of the older bodies had the issue, and then the K3 did, but three flagship models from last year didn't have it... so Ricoh/Pentax needs to research it and get it fixed for good. It's obvious they are capable of producing a body that doesn't have some weird mirror problems, so they should.

Doundounba · 08-02-2014, 07:55 AM

I'm pretty confident that the K-01 is also unaffected by this issue.

distudio · 08-02-2014, 07:56 AM

Originally posted by DRabbit

Interval is not the running theme. Even though that's what I was doing when I ran into it so often, many of the members were not shooting interval/timelapse at all.

There were reports of the K5 also having mirror-flapping or mirror-overrun issues. I've read reports on the with the K30, Kr, K20D (not always identical symptoms, but certainly crazy mirror flapping). However, I never had the problem with the K5-II and I ran that right to 115,000 shutter actuations. I have two K5-IIs bodies, one is at 75,000 and the other at 85,000 shutter actuations and neither had had a single problem. This is one of the reasons I started to speak out about the K3. I knew some of the older bodies had the issue, and then the K3 did, but three flagship models from last year didn't have it... so Ricoh/Pentax needs to research it and get it fixed for good. It's obvious they are capable of producing a body that doesn't have some weird mirror problems, so they should.

I've used a pair of K5 bodies extensively before getting my K3 and K5iis and before that a Kx, K20D, K10D and *istD, only the K3 has had the mirror flapping problem and that was in single shot mode.

**DRabbit** · 08-02-2014, 07:59 AM

Originally posted by Doundounba

I'm pretty confident that the K-01 is also unaffected by this issue.

I haven't used it for time-lapse, but I do use it quite a lot for photo shoots (great tripod camera)... never a problem. When one of my K5-IIs dies it'll end up being a backups, so we'll see how it does!

Doundounba · 08-02-2014, 08:06 AM

Originally posted by DRabbit

When one of my K5-IIs dies it'll end up being a backups, so we'll see how it does!

Tell you what: if your K-01 goes mirror-crazy, I'll give you one of mine free. (Hint: the K-01 has no mirror!)

**DRabbit** · 08-02-2014, 09:08 AM

Originally posted by Doundounba

Tell you what: if your K-01 goes mirror-crazy, I'll give you one of mine free. (Hint: the K-01 has no mirror!)

Of course it has no mirror

but it is still possible it will lock up or do some other crazy thing. I'm not sure how it will be in regards to heat either. I had my two K5-IIs bodies out in 85º(F) with very hot sun all day on Wednesday and Thursday and they did great.

phreon · 08-02-2014, 12:28 PM

My K3, S/N 482xxx, did it a few weeks after I got it late '13. While I was demonstrating the burst rate to a friend, it wigged out. That was on the original firmware. I have not encountered it since.

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07-29-2014, 03:02 AM	#496
totsmuyco Pentaxian Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Iloilo City Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,276	Originally posted by DRabbit Hey, not to be argumentative, but this is part of where my problem lies with Pentax/Ricoh. For me, with two bodies, the problem was not rare or intermittent. It was actually rare for me NOT to run into the problem. As long as I activated the shutter at least 4000-5000 times in a day (doing time-lapse), I would almost certainly have the mirror-flapping occur... like nearly 95% of the time. This was true through two K3 bodies. AND, much more frustratingly, I was in touch with Pentax directly through this time. At nearly every time-lapse shoot I went (at least one per week), I would report to them that I had the problem occur AGAIN. So they easily had access to my cameras and information. I wanted them to fix this problem. They never requested I send my K3 in to them when they approved the first exchange (through a local retailer). When the second body had the identical problem, they never requested that one back either. When I finally got approval to return the second one, I offered to keep testing as long as they would let me hold onto the K3 body to do so even after giving me the monetary credit, but they didn't want to do that. I would have easily let them hold onto a credit card number if they wanted insurance. So, my point is, if you run the K3 heavily, I think it's rather simple to reproduce the problem. When the company has access to someone willing to do heavy testing in the real world and report back, they should take them up on it as much as possible. People who don't use their K3 heavily, obviously, don't want to push their camera to reproduce the problem, and I don't blame them. But people who do, heavy users in the pro and amateur arena alike, could easily run into the mirror-flapping... and not intermittently at all. The heavier the use, the more likely to run into the issue. I realize my shooting situation is unique, and I ran into the problem a whole lot more than most people ever will... but that doesn't make it an insignificant issue. It will keep me from buying a K3 again until I know it's fixed for sure... not through rumors and misinformation. At this point I'm exploring other brands because I think it's sad that the Q10 was able to run for 12000 shutter actuations in one day without a glitch... and that the multiple K5-II and IIs bodies I've shot thousands and thousands of shots with could be so rock solid, but I couldn't expect the same from two most current, expensive, "flagship" K3s. Pentax/Ricoh and many of you at this point want me to go away, and likely that will happen eventually (yes, I heard some of you cheering LOL). But when it does it will be because I finally gave up on Pentax completely and switched to another brand. It won't come down to who produces the better camera because I'm not stupid... I realize that cameras aren't perfect... it will come down to their inability or lack of desire to be transparent about the issue. I can't have faith in a company that won't address its most avid of fans, (except behind the scenes in dark corners). And believe it or not, I'm one of the biggest Pentax fans you could meet. Amy I certainly agree with you. I'm sure if they asked for your unit they would have easily identified the problem. However, I think they already know where the problem lies and still don't have a sure fix for it. Like you, I'm not buying one until there is a sure fix.

07-29-2014, 07:16 AM	#497
derekkite Pentaxian Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Nelson B.C. Posts: 3,782	Originally posted by pinbalwyz More than 1 person has purchased 2 or more K3's and found the mirror flap problem in both. Ricoh is not trying to isolate the problem. They're stone walling it. Anyone plagued with this problem deserves a NEW unit because the manufacturing defect existed ab initio. They won't get it, of course, from Ricoh. All hi-tech manufactured electronic goods will experience a % of defects. Those can be corrected. What cannot be corrected is a company without the commitment to its customers they deserve. That's a character problem not easily resolved. From what I understand the problem has a fix. Send it in for repair. Have we heard from anyone who has done that yet? I have one body which fluttered twice. There were other odd instabilities from time to time, never repeated but just a bit flakey. It has been stable since 1.10 under very heavy usage.

07-29-2014, 08:38 AM	#498
karro Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Riga Photos: Albums Posts: 245	heyy, pinbalwyz, you know only one song, but you do know it well, eh?

07-29-2014, 11:06 AM	#499
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by karro heyy, pinbalwyz, you know only one song, but you do know it well, eh? The big question is whether he has sent the camera to Ricoh. If you don't attempt to get satisfaction, you (well) won't get satisfaction. Steve ---------- Post added 07-29-14 at 11:15 AM ---------- Originally posted by DRabbit Pentax/Ricoh and many of you at this point want me to go away Not me. I very much appreciate the effort you have put into quantifying reports of this issue as well as keeping track of Ricoh's efforts to implement a fix. For sure the problem is not as pervasive as the initial woes of the K-5 (mirror flap and sensor stains), but it exists and it is good to see that Ricoh is being responsive. Steve

07-29-2014, 12:26 PM	#500
Dougg Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Central Washington Photos: Albums Posts: 293	I just moved from the "not me" column to the "it happened to mine too" side. Disappointing. Photos immediately before and after look ok. K-3 purchased March 2014. FW: v1.10 Mode: Auto, with manual-focus "A" lens Battery: original one in body No grip SN: 4920462 DRabbit, thanks for your dedication and work on this issue! Doug

07-30-2014, 06:20 PM	#501
Uluru Banned Join Date: May 2010 Location: Back to my Walkabout Creek Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,535	Originally posted by Dougg I just moved from the "not me" column to the "it happened to mine too" side. Disappointing. Photos immediately before and after look ok. K-3 purchased March 2014. FW: v1.10... [/COLOR][/LEFT] Imagine how rare that camera will be in 20 years from now; a K-3 with a hiccup. That does not happen a lot. That's a keeper, and the price in collector's market will skyrocket.

07-31-2014, 06:43 AM	#502
markf Forum Member Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Chicago Posts: 63	What's with Pentax and their mirrors. My LX had "sticky mirror" after almost 20 years of use which was common for older LX's, but at least that was after many years of use, not right out of the box. I traded it in to Adorama for a K5II and now the K3 has mirror flap problems. Fortunately my new K3 is issue free so far.

08-01-2014, 11:24 AM	#503
asharpe Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Palo Alto, CA Posts: 221	Originally posted by markf What's with Pentax and their mirrors. My K3 is fine (for the time being) but I don't shoot interval, and that seems to be a running (or "overrunning") theme here. However, my old K100D had something that the technicians called a "mirror pre-fire", where the camera would flap the mirror several times, sometimes with the shutter release, and sometimes using the green button to meter with a manual lens. It always happened with manual lenses, never with a lens that made use of the contacts on the body. I took it in for repair, they claimed they "fixed" it -- replacing a logic board, if I recall -- but the problem came right back a few weeks later (I assume they didn't try it with a manual lens, but I did mention that to them). I finally gave the camera to someone who didn't use manual lenses. My K20D also had the same sort of "mirror pre-fire" a few times, too. So, yes, it does seem that their shutter/mirror firmware/logic gates/whatever has been plaguing them for a long time. But as far as camera manufacturer problems, it's a lot better than oil splatters on the sensor.

08-02-2014, 06:32 AM	#504
DRabbit Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Long Island, NY Photos: Gallery Posts: 593 Original Poster	Originally posted by asharpe My K3 is fine (for the time being) but I don't shoot interval, and that seems to be a running (or "overrunning") theme here. However, my old K100D had something that the technicians called a "mirror pre-fire", where the camera would flap the mirror several times, sometimes with the shutter release, and sometimes using the green button to meter with a manual lens. It always happened with manual lenses, never with a lens that made use of the contacts on the body. I took it in for repair, they claimed they "fixed" it -- replacing a logic board, if I recall -- but the problem came right back a few weeks later (I assume they didn't try it with a manual lens, but I did mention that to them). I finally gave the camera to someone who didn't use manual lenses. My K20D also had the same sort of "mirror pre-fire" a few times, too. So, yes, it does seem that their shutter/mirror firmware/logic gates/whatever has been plaguing them for a long time. But as far as camera manufacturer problems, it's a lot better than oil splatters on the sensor. Interval is not the running theme. Even though that's what I was doing when I ran into it so often, many of the members were not shooting interval/timelapse at all. There were reports of the K5 also having mirror-flapping or mirror-overrun issues. I've read reports on the with the K30, Kr, K20D (not always identical symptoms, but certainly crazy mirror flapping). However, I never had the problem with the K5-II and I ran that right to 115,000 shutter actuations. I have two K5-IIs bodies, one is at 75,000 and the other at 85,000 shutter actuations and neither had had a single problem. This is one of the reasons I started to speak out about the K3. I knew some of the older bodies had the issue, and then the K3 did, but three flagship models from last year didn't have it... so Ricoh/Pentax needs to research it and get it fixed for good. It's obvious they are capable of producing a body that doesn't have some weird mirror problems, so they should.

08-02-2014, 07:55 AM	#505
Doundounba Pentaxian Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: Montréal QC Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,351	I'm pretty confident that the K-01 is also unaffected by this issue.

08-02-2014, 07:56 AM	#506
distudio Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Sydney Photos: Albums Posts: 450	Originally posted by DRabbit Interval is not the running theme. Even though that's what I was doing when I ran into it so often, many of the members were not shooting interval/timelapse at all. There were reports of the K5 also having mirror-flapping or mirror-overrun issues. I've read reports on the with the K30, Kr, K20D (not always identical symptoms, but certainly crazy mirror flapping). However, I never had the problem with the K5-II and I ran that right to 115,000 shutter actuations. I have two K5-IIs bodies, one is at 75,000 and the other at 85,000 shutter actuations and neither had had a single problem. This is one of the reasons I started to speak out about the K3. I knew some of the older bodies had the issue, and then the K3 did, but three flagship models from last year didn't have it... so Ricoh/Pentax needs to research it and get it fixed for good. It's obvious they are capable of producing a body that doesn't have some weird mirror problems, so they should. I've used a pair of K5 bodies extensively before getting my K3 and K5iis and before that a Kx, K20D, K10D and *istD, only the K3 has had the mirror flapping problem and that was in single shot mode.

08-02-2014, 07:59 AM	#507
DRabbit Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Long Island, NY Photos: Gallery Posts: 593 Original Poster	Originally posted by Doundounba I'm pretty confident that the K-01 is also unaffected by this issue. I haven't used it for time-lapse, but I do use it quite a lot for photo shoots (great tripod camera)... never a problem. When one of my K5-IIs dies it'll end up being a backups, so we'll see how it does!

08-02-2014, 08:06 AM	#508
Doundounba Pentaxian Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: Montréal QC Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,351	Originally posted by DRabbit When one of my K5-IIs dies it'll end up being a backups, so we'll see how it does! Tell you what: if your K-01 goes mirror-crazy, I'll give you one of mine free. (Hint: the K-01 has no mirror!)

08-02-2014, 09:08 AM	#509
DRabbit Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Long Island, NY Photos: Gallery Posts: 593 Original Poster	Originally posted by Doundounba Tell you what: if your K-01 goes mirror-crazy, I'll give you one of mine free. (Hint: the K-01 has no mirror!) Of course it has no mirror but it is still possible it will lock up or do some other crazy thing. I'm not sure how it will be in regards to heat either. I had my two K5-IIs bodies out in 85º(F) with very hot sun all day on Wednesday and Thursday and they did great.

08-02-2014, 12:28 PM	#510
phreon Forum Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 72	My K3, S/N 482xxx, did it a few weeks after I got it late '13. While I was demonstrating the burst rate to a friend, it wigged out. That was on the original firmware. I have not encountered it since.