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03-18-2014, 11:35 AM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by tempelorg Quote
Someone in another (German) forum could reproduce the effect as well, but for him, it was a settings issue: When "Auto EV Compensation" (setting C.6 on K-3) is enabled (=2), then the Tv was limited to 1/180 with a HSS flash.

Oddly, though, I cannot reproduce this myself on neither my K-3 nor my K-5. My cameras are currently not showing any shutter speed limitation in Tv mode with HSS, no matter what I set this setting to.

@lister6520 - could you test this yourself, please? Assuming your K-3 is still limiting the shutter speed to 1/180 in Tv mode with HSS, change the C.6 setting and see if that helps.
Good find!

Odd, very odd. I turned off the C6 setting (C6=1) and it is indeed now working properly - I set to 1/1000, both the rear LCD and the viewfinder show 1/1000 and when I look at the exif of the picture it is 1/1000 so it seems it is working OK all round.

The problem is 100% reproducible for me. With C6=1 it is always working correctly and with C6=2 it is always working wrongly.

I noticed something else by mistake. There is odd behaviour even with the flash is not set to HSS. With C6=2 I set 1/1000 on the rear display but see 1/180 in the OVF and in the EXIF. The latter two are correct and as expected but why is the rear LCD still showing 1/1000? WIth C6=1 (off) it works as expected, limiting the shutter speed to 1/180 and showing the same value in the rear LCD and the OVF. So the weird behaviour also happens with the flash in non HSS mode. The common factor seems to be indeed the C6 setting.

PS when you say the camera is not showing any limitation are you looking in the OVF and the EXIF or just the rear LCD? The rear LCD never shows any limitation - it lets you set whatever you like but it is just an illusion. The actual speed will be 1/180 and this is also shown in the viewfinder.

03-18-2014, 11:57 AM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by lister6520 Quote
The problem is 100% reproducible for me. With C6=1 it is always working correctly and with C6=2 it is always working wrongly.
And I just tried again and still can't reproduce the issue - I turn on the Pentax 540 flash, with both switches to the right (HSS and On), mode is P-TTL, turn K3 on, to Tv, dial in 1/2000. Top LCD, OVF and rear LCD all show 1/2000 (I also noticed that the rear showed the dialed value while only the top LCD and VF showed the limited when I saw this "bug", so I always watch the top LCD now). Even if I go into the menu, switch to C6 on or off, then tap the shutter button, I still get 1/2000. Yet, you get the 1/180 limit on C6=2, just as I did originally when I posted this.

This is just too weird.

I wonder if any others who did already did perform a test before, could redo the test with C6 set to 2 and see if they get the limit with HSS then as well?
03-18-2014, 11:57 AM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by lister6520 Quote
Good find!

Odd, very odd. I turned off the C6 setting (C6=1) and it is indeed now working properly - I set to 1/1000, both the rear LCD and the viewfinder show 1/1000 and when I look at the exif of the picture it is 1/1000 so it seems it is working OK all round.

The problem is 100% reproducible for me. With C6=1 it is always working correctly and with C6=2 it is always working wrongly.

I noticed something else by mistake. There is odd behaviour even with the flash is not set to HSS. With C6=2 I set 1/1000 on the rear display but see 1/180 in the OVF and in the EXIF. The latter two are correct and as expected but why is the rear LCD still showing 1/1000? WIth C6=1 (off) it works as expected, limiting the shutter speed to 1/180 and showing the same value in the rear LCD and the OVF. So the weird behaviour also happens with the flash in non HSS mode. The common factor seems to be indeed the C6 setting.

PS when you say the camera is not showing any limitation are you looking in the OVF and the EXIF or just the rear LCD? The rear LCD never shows any limitation - it lets you set whatever you like but it is just an illusion. The actual speed will be 1/180 and this is also shown in the viewfinder.
I can confirm that my K-3 does exactly like this.

EDIT:

The bug is also present when not using the flash, just using Tv mode and putting in 1/1000 in the darkness of my kitchen with C-6 to ON the OVF changes the value to 1/20 when half pressing. The LV and rear does not change.

Does anyone have a K-5 or K-5II that can test if this bug is present there also?

Last edited by Tjompen1968; 03-18-2014 at 12:10 PM.
03-18-2014, 12:09 PM   #19
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Thanks, Tjompen1968, for confirming this. So we see now a pattern.

Let's ignore the fact that I, who came up with this originally, can't even reproduce it now while you two can. (Am I going insane?)

Now, assuming that C6 controls this behavior, let's think about whether this is making sense and is intentional behavior, or if this is unwanted behavior, i.e. a bug.

I would say: It makes no sense. The C6 setting is meant to protect me from over/underexposure if the chosen parameters can't be applied. But here, where we explicitly enable HSS on the flash, we WANT to use the speed we've set, e.g. 1/2000, and do not need the EV compensation to kick in, and while the flash shows me a reduced range due to my set shutter speed, I can still take properly exposed images with C6=1, so there's no need to limit the shutter speed with C6=2. Am I making sense?

03-18-2014, 12:23 PM   #20
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I tested this and when set C6 - 2 my shutter speed will remain at 1/1000 IF I leave Auto ISO in TV mode.

If i manually set ISO to a value such as 100, the shutter speed drops to 1/180.

Try it yourselves - with Auto ISO then forced ISO.

I think this is working as designed, since in one case the ISO is used as the compensation, but when it can't it has to use shutter speed if the lens is already wide open.

Maybe this is more of a 'what takes precedence' setting somewhere else?
03-18-2014, 01:06 PM   #21
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Spot on, crewl1! That nails it, now I can reproduce it again as well.

QuoteQuote:
I think this is working as designed, since in one case the ISO is used as the compensation, but when it can't it has to use shutter speed if the lens is already wide open.
I am not convinced of that yet - After all, even if I set ISO to my Auto ISO's max, 6400, it still won't do high speeds. For instance, with Auto ISO (100-6400), it takes the HSS picture at ISO 800 in my test. So, when I manually choose ISO 800, it should have no reason to perform any different under the same conditions, I'd think.
03-18-2014, 02:21 PM   #22
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Strange going ons... If I raise the ISO to or above what the A-ISO wants the shutter speed increases above 1/180.
03-18-2014, 02:46 PM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by Tjompen1968 Quote
Strange going ons... If I raise the ISO to or above what the A-ISO wants the shutter speed increases above 1/180.
I wonder if that's a similar (and unwanted) effect as I've documented on my website with the TAv mode when using the flash (no matter if HSS is used or not): There, it uses the (high) ISO it would also use if the flash were not used, even though, with the flash used, it could use a much lower ISO to keep noise down.

What I mean to say: There seem to be modes where the camera engages EV compensation as if the flash was not used - but since the flash is used, it doesn't need to engage the EV comp. The fact that it's using EV comp with the flash when it's not necessary is a logical error in the decision making of the firmware, i.e. what could be called a bug.

Am I making sense?

03-18-2014, 03:31 PM   #24
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The EV compensation thing might make sense, to some extent, possibly. But regardless of that, what can never make sense is displaying different speeds on the rear LCD and the OVF/top LCD. Whatever speed it decides to use and for whatever reason it does so there is one thing which should always be respected and that is consistency between the three displays.
03-18-2014, 04:55 PM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by lister6520 Quote
The EV compensation thing might make sense, to some extent, possibly. But regardless of that, what can never make sense is displaying different speeds on the rear LCD and the OVF/top LCD. Whatever speed it decides to use and for whatever reason it does so there is one thing which should always be respected and that is consistency between the three displays.
I think that is debatable - it is showing what you have selected on back display, the lcd is showing what the camera is using for the override.
As long as I know what is doing I am cool with it.
Now, is it explained in the manual? No.
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