K3 AF speed - the cake is a lie??

**mike.hiran** · 03-20-2014, 07:08 PM

what lens were you using on the nikon and canon? were you zoomed in more on those cameras?

**stens** · 03-20-2014, 08:09 PM

I guess I really haven't noticed focusing speed difference between my K-5 and K-3. I have noticed a lot more accuracy from the K-3.

derekkite · 03-20-2014, 08:10 PM

Originally posted by stens

I guess I really haven't noticed focusing speed difference between my K-5 and K-3. I have noticed a lot more accuracy from the K-3.

Yes. Compare the number of keepers, or missed shots due to out of focus. Some measured speed is interesting but mostly immaterial.

**RGlasel** · 03-20-2014, 09:14 PM

Originally posted by geomez

DC was more a marketing term and it is functionally SDM version 2

SDM is an acronym for Supersonic Drive Motor, and is similar to ultrasonic focus motors in other brands where high frequency (above the limits of human hearing) vibrations move the lens to focus. DC motors are mechanically linked to the lens. Based on using a DA 18-135 ED AL [IF] DC WR lens myself, it seems like a stepped DC motor, but I'm not sure of that. And overall focus speed depends on both the speed of the focus motor and the accuracy of the focus system in the camera which directs the motor. If the lens is moved back and forth to find focus, it takes longer than simply moving once.

danny09 · 03-20-2014, 10:51 PM

Originally posted by geomez

My 18-135mm WR is SDM and it focuses very fast on my K-3. No slower than any of my screw drive lenses.

It is an IF DC meaning INternal Focusing and DC motor. It is I believe quite different and more reliable than SDM. FWIW the 18-135 focuses very fast indeed even in low light. Coupled with the excellent high iso low light performance of K3, the results are indeed astounding.

amoringello · 03-21-2014, 02:43 AM

Originally posted by vagrant10

what lens were you using on the nikon and canon? were you zoomed in more on those cameras?

I tried to stay comparable, so 16-50 f/2.8 on the crop sensor bodies and 24-70 f4.0 on the full frame bodies.
I usually stayed zoomed in, as it allowed me to see sharpness better and effects of camera shake v.s. focus.

---------- Post added 03-21-14 at 05:46 AM ----------

Originally posted by derekkite

Yes. Compare the number of keepers, or missed shots due to out of focus. Some measured speed is interesting but mostly immaterial.

Number of keepers would have been zero because the moment desired was 3/4 second earlier or greater.
When photographing moving objects you capture the moment or you don't, regardless of sharpness.
For some photography anticipating movement and pre-focusing is possible, for some the options simply do not exist.
Focus speed is hardly immaterial.

Pentax is a GREAT studio camera!! It is even great for some sports and action shooting. It does great in bright light. It does great with large DOF where critical focus is minimized. I has great high ISO IQ. It has the best weather sealing. It is small, light and strong! The lenses produce great images (although the DA* 16-50 build quality is garbage, the cameras are tanks!). You cannot beat having built-in shake reduction, the list goes on where Pentax is better than the competition.....
I guess it is just not working for my style and subjects I'm shooting and I've finally hit a limit with all the tricks I've learned for helping get better photos.

awaldram · 03-21-2014, 04:42 AM

Originally posted by amoringello

It seems to hunt, pause and re-hunt just as much..

Sounds faulty my 16-50 is quick and positive K5 or K3.

The K5 with the 16-50 was slightly faster than the 18-105VR on a d7000 in a standard lit camera shop.

The k3 seems quicker to lock and appreciably quicker in AF-c but nothing different in AF visible speed

Parry · 03-21-2014, 05:07 AM

Originally posted by ALiEN|PoV

I noticed the same thing, the K3 spins them power-drill like. M42s are interesting. The adapter is a bit of a pain though (genuine) made for
smaller fingers than mine.

The adapter needs work, be it genuine or copy.

All mine move about.

**Michaelina2** · 03-21-2014, 05:51 AM

Originally posted by amoringello

I just stopped by the local camera store and did a test drive on the K3, hoping to take one home tonight...

In almost all other regards the Pentax camera meets or exceeds the capabilities of cameras three times its cost.
The AF speed was just so disappointing.

Anyone else see better performance form the K3 than the K5 and perhaps explain how it performed so horribly for me?

---------- Post added 03-20-14 at 07:28 PM ----------

FYI, both cameras were set to use center spot AF.
I tired the K3 in both AFS and AFA modes.

Easy answer: The K-3 is a very different beast than the K-5. While they may look similar and you may feel confident with your ability to get good results from your K-5, the K-3's functions and settings have a deep and long learning curve. I've been working with the K-3 since December (from a K5 IIs) and the K-3 called for me to really up my technique game. So, if you walk into the store, pick a K-3 out of the case with jillion unknown settings expecting it produce a "WOW"... well, that's a sure way to set yourself up for disappointment. I found the beauty of the K-3 over the K-5 lies in the subtle fine tuning of its features to develop it's 'sweet spot' consistent with my shooting style (I'm not quite there, yet).

As to focus speed, I'm not surprised that lenses with an electronic focusing motor perform about the same on the K-5 and K-3. Based on my eight years of experience with the DA*300/4 paired to various K-models, it performs as I ask and has not failed me, yet. My screw drive lenses continue to be quite snappy on all, as well.

Anyway, your post gives me the impression that you are just bored and figure a K-3 is an answer. Unless you are a post-processing wizard already, may I suggest that you explore that end of the photograph creation continuum? The K-5 is a perfectly capable camera. Paired to your 16-50 and shooting to their strengths, plus good post technique, they can produce dazzling results. Make a concentrated effort for (say) six months to learn everything you can about LR5+. If you do that, I bet you'll have more than a ton of fun and that's what this is all about.... eh?

Cheers... M

amoringello · 03-21-2014, 06:24 AM

Originally posted by awaldram

Sounds faulty my 16-50 is quick and positive K5 or K3.

I have had 3 of the DA*16-50 lenses. All have either had their SDM replaced or were purchased after the refactor.
All have behaved the same on the K5. I don't suspect much difference from the one with which I tested.
I did some initial testing on the K3 with the lens that was on the demo unit and didn't notice any amazing revelation in its speed. So I stuck with my primary shooting lens, the 16-50, for most of my testing.

Originally posted by Michaelina2:

Anyway, your post gives me the impression that you are just bored and figure a K-3 is an answer.

Well you probably got the wrong impression.

I've been shooting seriously for nearly 20 years and taking professional photos for the past six+.
I know exactly what I want to shoot, and how to shoot it. I know what settings affect the camera's performance and how to adjust what is necessary. I can anticipate problematic situations and am quite confident in how to obtain decent performance for the equipment I am using.

Lightroom is a great tool, been using it since version 2. But it cannot make an unfocused image sharp and it cannot go back in time and recreate the moment missed because the camera was still trying to acquire focus.

I am in 100% agreement with those that state that 99% of the cameras are better then 99% of the photographers.
As I stated, the K5/K3 is far superior to comparable bodies by other brands in many ways and beyond adequate to shoot many situations.

But in the area where I do most of my work, I am repeatedly affected by this one limitation of the camera at this point. Perhaps I overlooked the K3's new focus-speedup function?

Seriously, though, and it is why I started the post...
I am certainly open to the possibility that I missed something and there was perhaps some way to get better performance. It sounds like the gear (lenses) I own simply won't cut it.... and to get better performance I may need to either buy lower quality lenses or disable the SDM drive and hope the noise won't be an issue.

Or the worst alternative of them all.... go to another brand.
I've been shooting with Pentax for 20+ years... that is a lot of muscle memory to undo. Oh well, I guess it will help keep the brain healthy.

derekkite · 03-21-2014, 07:11 AM

Originally posted by amoringello

I tried to stay comparable, so 16-50 f/2.8 on the crop sensor bodies and 24-70 f4.0 on the full frame bodies.
I usually stayed zoomed in, as it allowed me to see sharpness better and effects of camera shake v.s. focus.

---------- Post added 03-21-14 at 05:46 AM ----------

Number of keepers would have been zero because the moment desired was 3/4 second earlier or greater.
When photographing moving objects you capture the moment or you don't, regardless of sharpness.
For some photography anticipating movement and pre-focusing is possible, for some the options simply do not exist.
Focus speed is hardly immaterial.

Pentax is a GREAT studio camera!! It is even great for some sports and action shooting. It does great in bright light. It does great with large DOF where critical focus is minimized. I has great high ISO IQ. It has the best weather sealing. It is small, light and strong! The lenses produce great images (although the DA* 16-50 build quality is garbage, the cameras are tanks!). You cannot beat having built-in shake reduction, the list goes on where Pentax is better than the competition.....
I guess it is just not working for my style and subjects I'm shooting and I've finally hit a limit with all the tricks I've learned for helping get better photos.

In theory you are right. In reality, in my experience, with the lenses I shoot, I get focused shots. I my experience, again, shooting with the K-3 since the end of November in the winter low light conditions, is that if there is a shot to be had, the body and lens acts predictably and with skill and practice I can get it. The focus mechanism isn't prescient, and some lenses are slow, there is a limit to the low light and low contrast conditions where I can get focus. But if I miss a shot I missed it. I miss far more in instances where my shutter/aperture is not right for the conditions than missing focus.

I don't shoot in studio.

awaldram · 03-21-2014, 07:19 AM

Well your choice

16-50 SDM Vs screw

You Tube

50-135 screw

You Tube

50-135 SDM

You Tube

There's a lot of rubbish spoken as gospel on these forums re SDM/DC/HSM

But I guess if you like rough noisy focusing circa the 80's then convert but don't expect any speed improvements.

My Sigma 70-200 OS HSM is my slowest focus moving lens but due to short throw is also the fastest AF (thanks to hi torque HSM)

Both the 16-50 and 50-135 are relativitley long throw lens so irrelevant of screw/sdm will be slower.

But none of the above has any bearing on K3 AF vs K5 AF vs Nikon Vs Canon

I was shooting alongside a 5d Mkii shooter on the weekend he was shooting a 70-200 VR1 and most of the time I was shooting 70-200 Sigma OS HSM and da* 300

AF speed was comparable he was using 'use modes' to stop water spray throwing off AF I was using 'Hold AF fro the same purpose where the two cameras separated was I could put more pixels on the target for the same aperture , and he had about a stop headroom on me. I could use multi WB to cope with daylight windows and sodium he had to suck it up

At 200mm normal viewing size there was little difference between the images , I had a fractional higher keeper rate but that could be put down to experience shooting the targets. His had to be cropped and that lost him any noise advantage.

amoringello · 03-21-2014, 07:26 AM

Quote:

But I guess if you like rough noisy focusing circa the 80's then convert but don't expect any speed improvements.

lol :-)

vonBaloney · 03-21-2014, 07:45 AM

Originally posted by Parry

The adapter needs work, be it genuine or copy.

All mine move about.

Off-topic, but the m42 adapter is supposed to be a bit loose (the genuine one is especially). Threads about that are around...

gmans · 03-21-2014, 07:47 AM

Originally posted by amoringello

won't cut it.... and to get better performance I may need to either buy lower quality lenses or disable the SDM drive and hope the noise won't be an issue.
Or the worst alternative of them all.... go to another brand.
I

The K3 does it for AF wise, the only time I found trouble is when body movement pushes off target, specially using spot AF target, I have been using AFC in full auto with positive results for birds in flight. See this 100% hit rate of hi speed burst impressed me the accuracy of the K3. https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/12-post-your-photos/253576-nature-sacred-ibis-flight.html

This was a series of shots in 2 seconds, the bird moved about 20 feet in that time.

03-21-2014, 02:43 AM	#21
amoringello Veteran Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Virginia, USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,562 Original Poster	Originally posted by vagrant10 what lens were you using on the nikon and canon? were you zoomed in more on those cameras? I tried to stay comparable, so 16-50 f/2.8 on the crop sensor bodies and 24-70 f4.0 on the full frame bodies. I usually stayed zoomed in, as it allowed me to see sharpness better and effects of camera shake v.s. focus. ---------- Post added 03-21-14 at 05:46 AM ---------- Originally posted by derekkite Yes. Compare the number of keepers, or missed shots due to out of focus. Some measured speed is interesting but mostly immaterial. Number of keepers would have been zero because the moment desired was 3/4 second earlier or greater. When photographing moving objects you capture the moment or you don't, regardless of sharpness. For some photography anticipating movement and pre-focusing is possible, for some the options simply do not exist. Focus speed is hardly immaterial. Pentax is a GREAT studio camera!! It is even great for some sports and action shooting. It does great in bright light. It does great with large DOF where critical focus is minimized. I has great high ISO IQ. It has the best weather sealing. It is small, light and strong! The lenses produce great images (although the DA* 16-50 build quality is garbage, the cameras are tanks!). You cannot beat having built-in shake reduction, the list goes on where Pentax is better than the competition..... I guess it is just not working for my style and subjects I'm shooting and I've finally hit a limit with all the tricks I've learned for helping get better photos. Last edited by amoringello; 03-21-2014 at 03:01 AM.

03-21-2014, 06:24 AM	#25
amoringello Veteran Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Virginia, USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,562 Original Poster	Originally posted by awaldram Sounds faulty my 16-50 is quick and positive K5 or K3. I have had 3 of the DA16-50 lenses. All have either had their SDM replaced or were purchased after the refactor. All have behaved the same on the K5. I don't suspect much difference from the one with which I tested. I did some initial testing on the K3 with the lens that was on the demo unit and didn't notice any amazing revelation in its speed. So I stuck with my primary shooting lens, the 16-50, for most of my testing. Originally posted by Michaelina2: Anyway, your post gives me the impression that you are just bored and figure a K-3 is an answer. Well you probably got the wrong impression. I've been shooting seriously for nearly 20 years and taking professional photos for the past six+. I know exactly what I want to shoot, and how to shoot it. I know what settings affect the camera's performance and how to adjust what is necessary. I can anticipate problematic situations and am quite confident in how to obtain decent performance for the equipment I am using. Lightroom is a great tool, been using it since version 2. But it cannot make an unfocused image sharp and it cannot go back in time and recreate the moment missed because the camera was still trying to acquire focus. I am in 100% agreement with those that state that 99% of the cameras are better then 99% of the photographers. As I stated, the K5/K3 is far superior to comparable bodies by other brands in many ways and beyond adequate to shoot many situations. But in the area where I do most of my work, I am repeatedly affected by this one limitation of the camera at this point. Perhaps I overlooked the K3's new focus-speedup function? Seriously, though, and it is why I started the post... I am certainly open to the possibility that I missed something and there was perhaps some way to get better performance. It sounds like the gear (lenses) I own simply won't cut it.... and to get better performance I may need to either buy lower quality lenses or disable the SDM drive and hope the noise won't be an issue. Or the worst alternative of them all.... go to another brand. I've been shooting with Pentax for 20+ years... that is a lot of muscle memory to undo. Oh well, I guess it will help keep the brain healthy. Last edited by amoringello; 03-21-2014 at 06:52 AM.*

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03-20-2014, 07:08 PM	#16
mike.hiran Site Supporter Join Date: May 2007 Location: portland Photos: Albums Posts: 1,491	what lens were you using on the nikon and canon? were you zoomed in more on those cameras?

03-20-2014, 08:09 PM	#17
stens Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Minnesota, USA Posts: 61	I guess I really haven't noticed focusing speed difference between my K-5 and K-3. I have noticed a lot more accuracy from the K-3.

03-20-2014, 08:10 PM	#18
derekkite Pentaxian Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Nelson B.C. Posts: 3,782	Originally posted by stens I guess I really haven't noticed focusing speed difference between my K-5 and K-3. I have noticed a lot more accuracy from the K-3. Yes. Compare the number of keepers, or missed shots due to out of focus. Some measured speed is interesting but mostly immaterial.

03-20-2014, 09:14 PM	#19
RGlasel Site Supporter Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Saskatoon Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,228	Originally posted by geomez DC was more a marketing term and it is functionally SDM version 2 SDM is an acronym for Supersonic Drive Motor, and is similar to ultrasonic focus motors in other brands where high frequency (above the limits of human hearing) vibrations move the lens to focus. DC motors are mechanically linked to the lens. Based on using a DA 18-135 ED AL [IF] DC WR lens myself, it seems like a stepped DC motor, but I'm not sure of that. And overall focus speed depends on both the speed of the focus motor and the accuracy of the focus system in the camera which directs the motor. If the lens is moved back and forth to find focus, it takes longer than simply moving once.

03-20-2014, 10:51 PM	#20
danny09 Veteran Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: SF Bay Area Posts: 417	Originally posted by geomez My 18-135mm WR is SDM and it focuses very fast on my K-3. No slower than any of my screw drive lenses. It is an IF DC meaning INternal Focusing and DC motor. It is I believe quite different and more reliable than SDM. FWIW the 18-135 focuses very fast indeed even in low light. Coupled with the excellent high iso low light performance of K3, the results are indeed astounding.

03-21-2014, 04:42 AM	#22
awaldram Veteran Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Hampshire Photos: Gallery Posts: 732	Originally posted by amoringello It seems to hunt, pause and re-hunt just as much.. Sounds faulty my 16-50 is quick and positive K5 or K3. The K5 with the 16-50 was slightly faster than the 18-105VR on a d7000 in a standard lit camera shop. The k3 seems quicker to lock and appreciably quicker in AF-c but nothing different in AF visible speed

03-21-2014, 05:07 AM	#23
Parry Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 606	Originally posted by ALiEN\|PoV I noticed the same thing, the K3 spins them power-drill like. M42s are interesting. The adapter is a bit of a pain though (genuine) made for smaller fingers than mine. The adapter needs work, be it genuine or copy. All mine move about.

03-21-2014, 05:51 AM	#24
Michaelina2 Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: SE Michigan USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,301	Originally posted by amoringello I just stopped by the local camera store and did a test drive on the K3, hoping to take one home tonight... In almost all other regards the Pentax camera meets or exceeds the capabilities of cameras three times its cost. The AF speed was just so disappointing. Anyone else see better performance form the K3 than the K5 and perhaps explain how it performed so horribly for me? ---------- Post added 03-20-14 at 07:28 PM ---------- FYI, both cameras were set to use center spot AF. I tired the K3 in both AFS and AFA modes. Easy answer: The K-3 is a very different beast than the K-5. While they may look similar and you may feel confident with your ability to get good results from your K-5, the K-3's functions and settings have a deep and long learning curve. I've been working with the K-3 since December (from a K5 IIs) and the K-3 called for me to really up my technique game. So, if you walk into the store, pick a K-3 out of the case with jillion unknown settings expecting it produce a "WOW"... well, that's a sure way to set yourself up for disappointment. I found the beauty of the K-3 over the K-5 lies in the subtle fine tuning of its features to develop it's 'sweet spot' consistent with my shooting style (I'm not quite there, yet). As to focus speed, I'm not surprised that lenses with an electronic focusing motor perform about the same on the K-5 and K-3. Based on my eight years of experience with the DA*300/4 paired to various K-models, it performs as I ask and has not failed me, yet. My screw drive lenses continue to be quite snappy on all, as well. Anyway, your post gives me the impression that you are just bored and figure a K-3 is an answer. Unless you are a post-processing wizard already, may I suggest that you explore that end of the photograph creation continuum? The K-5 is a perfectly capable camera. Paired to your 16-50 and shooting to their strengths, plus good post technique, they can produce dazzling results. Make a concentrated effort for (say) six months to learn everything you can about LR5+. If you do that, I bet you'll have more than a ton of fun and that's what this is all about.... eh? Cheers... M

03-21-2014, 07:11 AM	#26
derekkite Pentaxian Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Nelson B.C. Posts: 3,782	Originally posted by amoringello I tried to stay comparable, so 16-50 f/2.8 on the crop sensor bodies and 24-70 f4.0 on the full frame bodies. I usually stayed zoomed in, as it allowed me to see sharpness better and effects of camera shake v.s. focus. ---------- Post added 03-21-14 at 05:46 AM ---------- Number of keepers would have been zero because the moment desired was 3/4 second earlier or greater. When photographing moving objects you capture the moment or you don't, regardless of sharpness. For some photography anticipating movement and pre-focusing is possible, for some the options simply do not exist. Focus speed is hardly immaterial. Pentax is a GREAT studio camera!! It is even great for some sports and action shooting. It does great in bright light. It does great with large DOF where critical focus is minimized. I has great high ISO IQ. It has the best weather sealing. It is small, light and strong! The lenses produce great images (although the DA* 16-50 build quality is garbage, the cameras are tanks!). You cannot beat having built-in shake reduction, the list goes on where Pentax is better than the competition..... I guess it is just not working for my style and subjects I'm shooting and I've finally hit a limit with all the tricks I've learned for helping get better photos. In theory you are right. In reality, in my experience, with the lenses I shoot, I get focused shots. I my experience, again, shooting with the K-3 since the end of November in the winter low light conditions, is that if there is a shot to be had, the body and lens acts predictably and with skill and practice I can get it. The focus mechanism isn't prescient, and some lenses are slow, there is a limit to the low light and low contrast conditions where I can get focus. But if I miss a shot I missed it. I miss far more in instances where my shutter/aperture is not right for the conditions than missing focus. I don't shoot in studio.

03-21-2014, 07:26 AM	#28
amoringello Veteran Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Virginia, USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,562 Original Poster	Quote: But I guess if you like rough noisy focusing circa the 80's then convert but don't expect any speed improvements. lol :-)

03-21-2014, 07:45 AM	#29
vonBaloney Pentaxian Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Albuquerque, NM Posts: 6,029	Originally posted by Parry The adapter needs work, be it genuine or copy. All mine move about. Off-topic, but the m42 adapter is supposed to be a bit loose (the genuine one is especially). Threads about that are around...

03-21-2014, 07:47 AM	#30
gmans Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: Hunter Valley,NSW, Australia Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,466	Originally posted by amoringello won't cut it.... and to get better performance I may need to either buy lower quality lenses or disable the SDM drive and hope the noise won't be an issue. Or the worst alternative of them all.... go to another brand. I The K3 does it for AF wise, the only time I found trouble is when body movement pushes off target, specially using spot AF target, I have been using AFC in full auto with positive results for birds in flight. See this 100% hit rate of hi speed burst impressed me the accuracy of the K3. https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/12-post-your-photos/253576-nature-sacred-ibis-flight.html This was a series of shots in 2 seconds, the bird moved about 20 feet in that time.