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04-01-2014, 11:19 PM   #1
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Capture One 7.2.1 supports K-3

Capture One 7.2.1 is out and supports K-3 PEFs natively. No need to convert to DNG with Adobe DNG converter.

Yours Vienese

04-01-2014, 11:27 PM   #2
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Does it do K-3 DNG's natively?
04-02-2014, 12:56 AM   #3
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To answer my own question...

K-3 DNG support in Capture One Express v7.2.1 is there but seems buggy.

Pic related, opening a K-3 (RAW+) DNG alongside a K-3 JPG. Colour rendering is a mess and very difficult, if not impossible, to get right. The DNG is displayed using the in-built C1 'Pentax K-3 Generic' profile, using the 'Linear response' curve. JPEG is SOOC and displayed using the default C1 'JPEG file neutral' profile, and the 'linear response' curve.



BUT after testing against a few other DNG's, strangely enough C1 v7.2.1 DNG's render just fine, and the colours are near identical to SOOC JPEGs:



Something weird seems to be going on.

Last edited by rawr; 04-02-2014 at 01:32 AM.
04-02-2014, 12:34 PM   #4
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The ones I've looked at so far in CO 7.2.1 all looked good and were very close or practically identical to their jpg counterparts (been shooting jpg+raw for the last couple of months). Usually the DNG looked better than the jpg. Using DNG format directly from camera. Haven't tried the PEF format.

Could it be that your picture with mismatched colors was shot using the multi-awb option of the K-3? Wouldn't surprise me if that was a feature that CO did not yet support properly...

04-02-2014, 01:04 PM   #5
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
To answer my own question...

K-3 DNG support in Capture One Express v7.2.1 is there but seems buggy.

Pic related, opening a K-3 (RAW+) DNG alongside a K-3 JPG. Colour rendering is a mess and very difficult, if not impossible, to get right. The DNG is displayed using the in-built C1 'Pentax K-3 Generic' profile, using the 'Linear response' curve. JPEG is SOOC and displayed using the default C1 'JPEG file neutral' profile, and the 'linear response' curve.

BUT after testing against a few other DNG's, strangely enough C1 v7.2.1 DNG's render just fine, and the colours are near identical to SOOC JPEGs:

Something weird seems to be going on.
Interesting observation here, and weird it is.

I am particularly interested in knowing if that would also apply to DNG files from a K5.
You say that you have tested that against other DNG's .... from which camera(s) ?
I find (read: I saw on other forums) that C1 does a great job with some other camera "brands".

JP
04-02-2014, 01:16 PM   #6
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QuoteOriginally posted by jpzk Quote
I am particularly interested in knowing if that would also apply to DNG files from a K5.
JP
Having processed somewhere around 2000 images from a K5 with C1 before upgrading to the K3, I can say I've never seen similar discoloration as rawr showed in the screenshots with the DNG's from the K5. But of course, that doesn't mean it might not occur sometimes...
04-02-2014, 01:20 PM   #7
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QuoteOriginally posted by jens.w Quote
Could it be that your picture with mismatched colors was shot using the multi-awb option of the K-3? Wouldn't surprise me if that was a feature that CO did not yet support properly...
It's quite possible. The first series of DNG's (on display at top) were taken literally about 1 hour after I had just bought the camera. So the settings for the camera in that series of images may well have been multi-AWB, if that's what the factory default for the camera is. The bird photos were taken some months later.

Another possibility is that the DNG's produced by K-3 firmware v1.0 were also recording something weird in the metadata or the structure of the DNG which C1 failed to parse properly, but which later versions of the K-3 firmware corrected.

QuoteOriginally posted by jpzk Quote
You say that you have tested that against other DNG's
I've found in the past that C1 does a fine job with K-x and K-5 DNG's. It's a very good RAW processor. It just sometimes takes them a while to 'nail' Pentax camera support.

Last edited by rawr; 04-02-2014 at 01:26 PM.
04-03-2014, 08:18 AM   #8
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hmm, I don't think multi-awb was the factory default. At least not for me. So perhaps the firmware did change something, especially if all shots you're taking now look good.

04-03-2014, 08:19 AM   #9
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What a great news
04-05-2014, 02:15 AM - 1 Like   #10
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
It's quite possible. The first series of DNG's (on display at top) were taken literally about 1 hour after I had just bought the camera. So the settings for the camera in that series of images may well have been multi-AWB, if that's what the factory default for the camera is. The bird photos were taken some months later.

Another possibility is that the DNG's produced by K-3 firmware v1.0 were also recording something weird in the metadata or the structure of the DNG which C1 failed to parse properly, but which later versions of the K-3 firmware corrected.



I've found in the past that C1 does a fine job with K-x and K-5 DNG's. It's a very good RAW processor. It just sometimes takes them a while to 'nail' Pentax camera support.
Did you open this folder with DNG images before in CO1, before the version with K3 support? Because then you should browse to that folder and delete the Capture one folder that is created when opening an image folder in CO1.
This way, the images settings and previews will be recreated with the supported version.
About the K3 support In CO1:

How do people find the colors? I am a big fan of CO1, and had terrific results with the K5 and K5IIs, but am downright disappointed with the color rendering of the K3 in version 7.2.1.
Greens are very much undersaturated, with grass looking flat and faintly brownish and blue colors have a shift and appear flat and washed out (e.g. subdued blue skies), while distinct reds can be agressively saturated. This is all depending on the image, and of course how accurate your monitor or printer is, but the results are not nearly as good as with the K5 series.

I took the effort of analizing the "K3 generic" color profile, and to my amazement found that it is the same profile as for the original K5 (internal name: K5 genericv2, creation date 02-2011).
I took a look at the color gamut, and it is exactly identical to the K5 profile, with exeption of the red primary being shifted outwards.
So a bit of lazy recycling going on here.
Capture one can give that extra special look to your images due to their custom made high quality color profiles for each camera. I am not seeing this with the K3.
I raised a support case, mainly because I find they are progressively dropping the ball on Pentax support with late support and no actual camera profiling. Some posters on their forum (including myself) had to do a lot of convincing to get the K3 in this release to begin with.
They are looking into it, and will hopefully as yet get a Pentax K3 in house and profile it, instead of arbitrarily recycling old profiles made for different cameras.
I have the feeling K3 colors can be much better in CO1 with a decent generic profile. The overall balance just isn't there in a lot of images.

So rather dissapointed that Phase one apparently doesn't think much of Pentax. Fingers crossed that my feedback will lead to a good generic profile.

Chris

Last edited by Chris Mak; 04-05-2014 at 02:25 AM.
04-08-2014, 03:47 AM   #11
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Interesting finding, with the colors being washed out and the profile being a copy of the K5 one. I haven't done too much comparison yet, but will have to keep this in mind with the next pictures I take. One thing though, where did you find the color profile file? Because if it is readable and one can edit it, then in theory there's nothing stopping us from creating our own, better profile? Only downside would be that a software update might overwrite it, and of course the community doing something the company should have done...
04-08-2014, 09:57 AM - 1 Like   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by jens.w Quote
Interesting finding, with the colors being washed out and the profile being a copy of the K5 one. I haven't done too much comparison yet, but will have to keep this in mind with the next pictures I take. One thing though, where did you find the color profile file? Because if it is readable and one can edit it, then in theory there's nothing stopping us from creating our own, better profile? Only downside would be that a software update might overwrite it, and of course the community doing something the company should have done...
Hello Jens,

The profiles are inside a folder in the CO1 app (I am on a Mac) > resources > profiles > input. If you are familiar with browsing through package contents it's easy to find. On Windows I would not know.
The internal naming and creation date reveal that it is a rework of the 2011 K5 profile, but more important: loading the profile in Profile inspector (Colorthink pro) reveals that it is actually a direct copy with the exception of the Red primary being shifted outwards in the gamut to increase red saturation. I don't know how familiar you are with color management etc., but this is a véry lazy edit on an old profile, that only makes the already ill-suited profile worse.
It's a shame, because CO1 is a véry good raw converter, capable of superb colors if they actually profile a camera. They don't seem to take Pentax seriously, all profiles after the K5 are copy/paste work, also the K30 and K5IIs. The thing is, that the K3 sensor is a very different sensor from the profile that is used for it. I use a calibrated workflow, and reds are oversaturated, blues have a shift and are undersaturated. I took a group portrait with lots of different clothing, and e.g. purple was not purple, but washed out blueish purple.

The pro version has a superb color editor though (advanced mode), that alllows direct edits on the .icc profile, and save as a new default camera profile, but it is hard work. You can set the edited and saved profile as default for the K3. I think I finally managed to cook up a decent profile, but I still feel Phase one is neglecting Pentax. I raised a somewhat irritated support case over this. It would be nice if Pentax users that use CO1 and don't like the ill-suited generic profile, would raise a support case, in order to stimulate Phase one to take Pentax more seriously, and get a K3 in house to profile, instead of forever recycling a 2011 profile with some lacklustre edit.

regards
Chris
04-11-2014, 05:12 AM   #13
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Thanks Chris! I'm on OS X too, so the profiles were easy to find (/Applications/Capture One.app/Contents/Frameworks/AppCore.framework/Resources/Profiles/Input was the full path for me). Although when I look at the profiles using the built in OS X tool (ColorSync Utility), I find that the K3 profile has a lot less tags. E.g. I don't see any black point data although the K-5 v2 profile has it (see attached screenshot).

Anyway, unfortunately I'm only a hobby photographer, so can't really say I have a calibrated work flow. Also I can't really say my eyes are trained enough to spot incorrect colors unless they're radically wrong (such as was the case when you tried to open a k3 DNG before the k3 profile was in the software). Do you have any suggestions on what type of photos to take in order to best illustrate the problem, what to look for, or how to do a comparison? I'd like to be able to see the issue with my own eyes also before I join you in raising heat at C1.
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04-12-2014, 01:42 PM   #14
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QuoteOriginally posted by Chris Mak Quote
I am a big fan of CO1, and had terrific results with the K5 and K5IIs, but am downright disappointed with the color rendering of the K3 in version 7.2.1
I found your thread at the PO forum and completely understand your frustration.

I know how irritating incorrect colours are and for PO to come up with such a bad profile after all this time is very unsatisfactory, to say the least. This reminds me of "Bibble" whose Pentax profiles were damaged quite a bit and the developers had a rather bad attitude about it. I hope PO will prove to be better and to be hearing from you that you were happy with your K-5 profile, is encouraging.

As a K-5 II owner and current Lightroom (3.6) user, I'm currently unhappy with the Adobe Standard, the "Embedded" and my custom X-rite color passport camera profiles. I've reported on my troubles in a respective PO forum post (in your thread).

I'm considering switching from LR to CO. Although I love LR's UI, I'm irritated by the appalling Adobe QC (non-existent), and if LR disappears into the "cloud" I'll dump it anyhow.

I posted a questions about CO at the CO forum. If you could help answering some of them, that would be most appreciated.

Last edited by Class A; 04-12-2014 at 01:51 PM.
04-13-2014, 11:50 PM   #15
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QuoteOriginally posted by jens.w Quote
Thanks Chris! I'm on OS X too, so the profiles were easy to find (/Applications/Capture One.app/Contents/Frameworks/AppCore.framework/Resources/Profiles/Input was the full path for me). Although when I look at the profiles using the built in OS X tool (ColorSync Utility), I find that the K3 profile has a lot less tags. E.g. I don't see any black point data although the K-5 v2 profile has it (see attached screenshot).

Anyway, unfortunately I'm only a hobby photographer, so can't really say I have a calibrated work flow. Also I can't really say my eyes are trained enough to spot incorrect colors unless they're radically wrong (such as was the case when you tried to open a k3 DNG before the k3 profile was in the software). Do you have any suggestions on what type of photos to take in order to best illustrate the problem, what to look for, or how to do a comparison? I'd like to be able to see the issue with my own eyes also before I join you in raising heat at C1.
Hi Jens,

As I mentioned, the K3 generic profile is in reality the K5v2 profile with an arbitrary edit to raise the red saturation (only making it worse), and renaming it to "K3 generic".
In my posts in the Phase one forum (windows and mac section) you can read about this, and also in the windows section I posted some crops towards the end of the thread of a group portrait that contained many different colors of clothing. The shifts in colors are leading to simply wrong colors, and that affects all your images. That is why I find it simply unacceptable for Phase one, to create support with this practice of copying over profiles from a camera with a totally different sensor.
It's not that with this bad profile your images will look very bad, but the incorrect colors affect all of your images.
A good profile has the opposite effect: all colors come to life.
What is all the more unacceptable, is that Pentax seems to exclusively get this treatment by Phase one, while Olympus EM-10 gets a special mention of optimized color support, and the Nikon coolpix get's a lens profile. Yet the top class Pentax K3 doesn't seem worth profiling to Phase one at the moment.

With the K5 profile, support was very good in CO1, and it has been my favorite raw converter for years, also with the K5IIs, but this K3 generic profile is just bad. CO1 is more than worth it, and as Phase one really lets it slide if there is no demand, I decided to beat the drum on this issue with Phase one. It would be a pity if the K3 is not properly profiled, as you will never get the best out of the K3 images while knowing that all it takes is for Phase one to put a bit of effort in getting a Pentax K3 in house and profile it.
All I got so far, is: "Thanks for your information. We put great care into each profile we make. I have forwarded this to R&D and we will await their response, but cannot give you a timeline".
And on the forum something like: "Many things are going on behind the curtains (regarding profiling of cameras). All people think their camera is the best and want support, but many things are involved in supporting a camera, legally as well as politically".
What to make of that?

It's a waste of time speculating on remarks like that, the only constructive thing to do, is let Phase one know (through a support case) that you would like to pay for their software, or have paid for their software, and expect the support they advertise on their website:

"Tailor-made camera profiles

Each camera is tested by our image quality experts to create a tailor-made and optimized profile to bring out the very best in your camera."

Chris

Last edited by Chris Mak; 04-14-2014 at 12:28 AM.
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