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05-21-2014, 10:28 AM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by Erictator Quote
I can't speak to car computers specifically, but they have very basic tasks to do compared to your camera, and they are modular, one cpu doesn't run your nav and your engine, heh heh. Those CPU's are "hardened" and kept as simple as possible for the task I believe. But, as a 25yr computer tech I can tell you, the faster the CPU, the more demanding it is on the quality and speed of the memory you stick in the device, be it a computer, or a camera, also, the more demanding on the quality of the power source and manufacturing tolerances.

You can't with all fairness compare the reliability of a DL to a K3 on the same playing field really. You get to Ferarri level performance, and you understand why they are in the garage more often, at least until that level of performance becomes "the norm" and all the support products catch up.

My K-5 locked up once in the early firmware days, never did again...I formatted the card and didn't give further thought. If it did it again, I'd have chucked the card in the trash... and if it was a regular thing, I'd have sent it in for service like you did your K20. I tend not to panic, but maybe I'm just used to the idea that electronics are not infallible. All electronics have manufacturing tolerences and error correction because they know they are imperfect. Sometimes, the errors overwhelm the correction when there is a major snafu down stream.
Eric
I'm not talking about your "nav system", I'm talking about the CPU that controls your engine, and if you think it's "simpler" than the one in your camera, you're sadly mistaken! Your car's computer monitors and adjusts everything your engine is doing to keep it running efficiently, your cameras computer is merely an image processor.


How often do you have to bring your car in for an oil change, tire rotation and firmware update?? Whether it's a Ferrari or a smart car, computer and / or firmware issues are very rare! Sensors and relays may fail, but the CPU rarely needs attention.


Anyway, it seems some here miss my point. If a simple firmware update would've solved my K20 problem (it WAS running the latest version at the time BTW), then why would Pentax go through the trouble and expense of changing out the main board, and why has the problem not returned?


As for the difference between the DL and K3, the DL is certainly far less sophisticated than the K3, but the flip side is, computer systems are far more reliable these days than they were back in 2005 when the DL was released.

05-22-2014, 12:12 PM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by Al_Kahollick Quote
I'm not talking about your "nav system", I'm talking about the CPU that controls your engine, and if you think it's "simpler" than the one in your camera, you're sadly mistaken! Your car's computer monitors and adjusts everything your engine is doing to keep it running efficiently, your cameras computer is merely an image processor.


How often do you have to bring your car in for an oil change, tire rotation and firmware update?? Whether it's a Ferrari or a smart car, computer and / or firmware issues are very rare! Sensors and relays may fail, but the CPU rarely needs attention.


Anyway, it seems some here miss my point. If a simple firmware update would've solved my K20 problem (it WAS running the latest version at the time BTW), then why would Pentax go through the trouble and expense of changing out the main board, and why has the problem not returned?


As for the difference between the DL and K3, the DL is certainly far less sophisticated than the K3, but the flip side is, computer systems are far more reliable these days than they were back in 2005 when the DL was released.
My comment as should have been clear related to non critical elements like NAV, cruise control cancellation, AC etc. In most modern cars these are centrally managed via the AV head unit and they are becoming much more complex as have cameras and have similar bugs that we see with cameras. That is all I was saying.

I've spent 25 yrs in IT from real time military systems to large scale data warehouses and CICS ... I know very complex ... and you don't need to be that complex to get to the point where ensuring bug free code is often to hard to guarantee unless your spending vast amounts on statefull testing of the sort you might do in the military or Swift like money transfer systems.

Paul
05-22-2014, 05:22 PM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by pgamble Quote
My comment as should have been clear related to non critical elements like NAV, cruise control cancellation, AC etc. In most modern cars these are centrally managed via the AV head unit and they are becoming much more complex as have cameras and have similar bugs that we see with cameras. That is all I was saying.

I've spent 25 yrs in IT from real time military systems to large scale data warehouses and CICS ... I know very complex ... and you don't need to be that complex to get to the point where ensuring bug free code is often to hard to guarantee unless your spending vast amounts on statefull testing of the sort you might do in the military or Swift like money transfer systems.

Paul
My original comment was comparing having to pull your car battery to get it to work right in the same manner you need to do it when your camera freezes. The point being: you wouldn't put up with that for your car, why accept it for your camera. Nowhere did I mention anything about non-critical components, they have nothing to do with starting your car. You should read and fully understand ones comment before replying to it.


The system controlling your camera isn't nearly as complicated as you think, and it's been used, researched, studied and tweaked since the inception of digital cameras, it's not like they invent a whole new way of capturing images with each new camera model!


I'm sure there's an odd lock up once in a blue moon due to a software glitch, or low voltage situation, but they should be extremely few and very, very far between. The more likely cause is faulty hardware, which is why they replaced the main board on my K20 and the problem disappeared! If firmware or the newer processing system were to blame, wouldn't it make sense that my K30, being more complex than my K20, would have had lock up problems as well???
05-22-2014, 05:49 PM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by Al_Kahollick Quote
The system controlling your camera isn't nearly as complicated as you think, and it's been used, researched, studied and tweaked since the inception of digital cameras, it's not like they invent a whole new way of capturing images with each new camera model!
Well, these devices ARE complicated and have to deal with a lot of asynchronous inputs and tasks. Every couple of years a new processor comes out with new capabilities and new quirks and errata. And fairly recently, the Milbeaut line switched from a Fujitsu RISC architecture for the microcontroller module to ARM, and I have to imagine that interfacing with the image processor portion of the chip is different in various ways because of it.

This isn't to make excuses, because it CAN be done right, and there should be a complete suite of rigorous testing protocols to identify problems BEFORE the product hits the market.

I just don't think it's all that simple as you suggest, and I for one am not surprised there have been some issues. Disappointed, sure, but not surprised.

But what really bums me out is the corporate response, or more accurately the complete lack thereof. The camera has been out for like eight months now, and finally NOW we are hearing that engineers are looking into the problems?

05-22-2014, 06:47 PM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by Quicksand Quote
..

But what really bums me out is the corporate response, or more accurately the complete lack thereof. The camera has been out for like eight months now, and finally NOW we are hearing that engineers are looking into the problems?
It takes time to collect evidence if the problem is random and happens just here and there.

Without enough evidence, and some good evidence, all attempts to fix something is futile and a waste of time. However, all that does not mean Ricoh Imaging should not state that they are in the process of collecting the evidence and examination of the issue. Because such a communication educate users on how things are done, fears are dispersed and users made important part of finding of a root cause, and a solution.

However, if that has not been done, one must also understand that each company has a set of rules when to do what, and actions are based on risk level. If the product of the affected performance of the product and user's harm was high enough to prompt alarm that asks for certain detailed communication, that would be (most likely) done too.

Ricoh is not some backyard company. Despite our resent at some very slow actions of theirs, and their decision to make Pentax just a product line, they are one of world's most ethical businesses.
05-22-2014, 09:19 PM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by Quicksand Quote
Well, these devices ARE complicated and have to deal with a lot of asynchronous inputs and tasks. Every couple of years a new processor comes out with new capabilities and new quirks and errata. And fairly recently, the Milbeaut line switched from a Fujitsu RISC architecture for the microcontroller module to ARM, and I have to imagine that interfacing with the image processor portion of the chip is different in various ways because of it.

This isn't to make excuses, because it CAN be done right, and there should be a complete suite of rigorous testing protocols to identify problems BEFORE the product hits the market.

I just don't think it's all that simple as you suggest, and I for one am not surprised there have been some issues. Disappointed, sure, but not surprised.

But what really bums me out is the corporate response, or more accurately the complete lack thereof. The camera has been out for like eight months now, and finally NOW we are hearing that engineers are looking into the problems?



DSLR's may not be simple, but they're certainly not as complicated as some folks think. Smart phones are every bit, if not more complicated than your camera, they don't share the same lock up / freeze problem cameras do!


I have friends that shoot CaNikons, most have 3 or more bodies, none have ever had freeze / lock up trouble. Personally, I have 3 DSLR bodies and a handful of different P&S cams, only my K20 had problems, and that was hardware related.


I agree that these "bugs" should be worked out before a product is released. But my thought is: if the problem is merely software or interface related, it would affect all of a particular model, not just some, and not randomly with varying problems. Those things signal, to me at least, hardware deficiencies.


Perhaps the slow response is due in part to users just accepting that electronics have bugs, and failures are ok! Again, I'll use the car analogy, if you had to pull your car battery, just once, to reset your vehicle so it would start, would you just chalk it up to "buggy electronics"? No, you'd haul ass to the dealer to get it fixed! If more people sent their cameras in, instead of turning a blind eye when they failed to operate properly, maybe the manufacturer would do a tad more testing before releasing their newest (read most expensive) photographers toy!


But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.
05-22-2014, 09:22 PM   #22
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Had it happen a couple of times with my K-5.
05-23-2014, 12:16 AM   #23
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Reliability of car computers? Not much.
I've had the computer on my 20 year old car die whilst driving. Possible to still drive it, although only in second gear, plus the engine idled way too fast. Power steering wouldn't work either.
Luckily, second gear covered speeds between 0 and 65km pretty well, so I was able to still use the car for a week. Engine management computers die quite often, apparently. I had a workmate whose brand new dealer delivered VW wouldn't start on day one of the ownership due to computer failure and the car had to be taken away on a flat bed truck.

05-23-2014, 03:42 AM - 1 Like   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by calsan Quote
Reliability of car computers? Not much.
I've had the computer on my 20 year old car die whilst driving.
20 years is not reliable, Calsan?

How long's the manufacturer warranty on your Macbook Pro?

Electronic mechanisms are generally much more reliable than mechanical ones.

It's more likely your shutter fails after 200,000 clicks than the sensor behind it.

Last edited by clackers; 05-23-2014 at 03:50 AM.
07-14-2014, 05:36 AM   #25
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K-3 freeze

Embarrassing wedding shoot!!
First time I combined my new K-3 with battery grip, Pentax smc DA* 16-50mm lens and Pentax AF-540FGZ flash. After about 10 shots fired the camera started freezing completely, you can swithch off the camera and the grip but the display still shows the last setting - just that nothing works at all.

First time it happened i waited about 10 seconds - after switching everything off, it came back on again. Second time the same. Third time it happened i waited about 2 minutes and had to remove the main battery before it could operate. All of this happened a few times.

All batteries were fully charged, both body and grip. The flash batteries was full. Camera was set on P and flash on normal (no red-eye etc) and flash on P-TTL.

I did the firmware update 1.10 two days before the wedding shoot - seems the mirror flop is gone at least as mine did the same when I was shooting wildlife in Kruger National Park.

Read more at: https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/120-general-technical-troubleshooting/268...#ixzz37RhOrtFd
07-14-2014, 09:15 AM   #26
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Is there any indication that this issue was addressed in the v1.10 firmware update?


Steve

(...was amused to read several posts back that someone considered their smartphone to be more stable than a K-3. My Samsung crashes regularly )
07-14-2014, 11:10 AM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
Is there any indication that this issue was addressed in the v1.10 firmware update?


Steve

(...was amused to read several posts back that someone considered their smartphone to be more stable than a K-3. My Samsung crashes regularly )
Steve. I went through all the previous posts and something caught my eye - memory card.

I've inserted the no 1 (first memory card slot) card into my card reader and inserted into my computers USB port. It doesn't show K-3 under My Computer but a F-drive and also it wants to format the F-drive. I can't download the images from memory card to computer.

The photos are there, i can view it on my camera.

This whole problem might be card related. Well, it's the new card that came with the K-3 bought from B&H. I'll test and post my findings....
07-14-2014, 11:57 AM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by Gerdup Quote
Steve. I went through all the previous posts and something caught my eye - memory card.

I've inserted the no 1 (first memory card slot) card into my card reader and inserted into my computers USB port. It doesn't show K-3 under My Computer but a F-drive and also it wants to format the F-drive. I can't download the images from memory card to computer.

The photos are there, i can view it on my camera.

This whole problem might be card related. Well, it's the new card that came with the K-3 bought from B&H. I'll test and post my findings....
What is the capacity of the card? A friend had the same thing happen to her NEX with a 64 gb card. It can't be read by computers, but can be read by her camera, all the while her camera was behaving erratically. The problems stopped when I loaned her one of my cards.
07-15-2014, 03:49 AM   #29
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I strongly believe this is memory card issue. I was testdriving my friend's K-3 and took full load of 64Gb images and then iserted my own 16Gb green or blue Kingston card. Twice total lockup. Or maybe not total, no response to commands so I removed batteries no questions asked. That 16GB card was my fastest SD card which happened also to have problems as Raspberry pi system disk. Lesson learnt: Use good cards and burn the misbeheaving.

And big cards have some Microsoft filesystem, not normal FAT.
07-15-2014, 06:21 AM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
Is there any indication that this issue was addressed in the v1.10 firmware update?


Steve

(...was amused to read several posts back that someone considered their smartphone to be more stable than a K-3. My Samsung crashes regularly )
Unfortunately, last week, the day after I updated from v1.03 to v1.10, I had a hang. In this case, the photo I had just taken was displayed on the review screen but the camera had become completely unresponsive and on turning on again, the photo had not been stored. It had been several weeks since the last hang, so I hope the new version is not less reliable.

John.
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