[OregonJim]

Brand new K-3, less than 100 or so shutter actuations. Fully charged battery, BG-5 not attached, shooting outside at approx. 70F temperature. Aperature priority mode with Pentax KA 70-200mm, manual focus shooting with infrared remote trigger on a tripod. O-GPS1 attached, also with fresh battery. The camera locked up with blank rear LCD, no response to any controls. The top LCD was on. It was just sitting there idle - it did not lock up in response to a shutter press or any other input, nor did it do the mirror flap or runaway shutter. It was just frozen. Switching the power switch off made no difference, it was still on and locked up. My only recourse was to remove the battery. After that, it appears to be operating normally.

Has anyone else seen this behavior in the K-3 (lockup/freeze not accompanied by mirror flapping)?

P.S. - Firmware version is 1.03

[Adam]

Random lockups like this can happen with any camera. I've had it happen a handful of time over the years without experiencing any other camera defects.

[rawr]

I'm with Adam on this one.

I've not had a random lockup with the K-3, but with the K-5 I had one shortly after getting the camera. Several years of usage later, it still hasn't happened again. Be an optimist

[Uluru]

It happened a few times to me with K-7. It happened with a Leica compact too. Also with Minolta A1.
It never happened with Pentax ME Super, though :-)

It is random behaviour — at least as I could not perceive any pattern. But it happens on desktop and portable computers far more often, and cameras today are also a form of a computer, becoming increasingly more complicated. It is to be expected that each new future camera will crash more, as its software and processing, communication, etc. becomes more complicated.

Also consider that K-3 has a brand new software and chipsets in it — never tried before. The amount of unpolished routines may be overwhelming as it takes quite some time to polish up many bugs. Wasn't that a reason that K5-II was perhaps the most robust recent Pentax camera, with many annoying quirks (what we believed were "hardware problems") polished up as well? Because K5-II came last in the line to use a well-polished software over several previous models and years, and an imaging engine with all quirks well-known and documented. Similarly, a K-3 successor using same, but polished up software will be superior to the K-3.

I know this may sound like a joke, but it isn't: if you don't want to encounter such problems in the future, and cannot wait for ironing of all bugs, use real cameras — film or plate cameras — with minimum of electronics in them.

PS. Yes, I remember Minolta A2 was far superior to Minolta A1 in every respect, including reliability; which somewhat proves the point.

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Last edited by Uluru; 05-14-2014 at 04:34 AM.

[pearsaab]

i have had both the mirror flopping and the random lock...removing the battery takes care of it..it is frustrating but can't find any direct correlation to what i am doing.
and the random lock can occur without the mirroe flop...actually that has happen a few times and the mirror flop has stopped

[OregonJim]

I know this may sound like a joke, but it isn't: if you don't want to encounter such problems in the future, and cannot wait for ironing of all bugs, use real cameras — film or plate cameras — with minimum of electronics in them.

I do use film cameras extensively, and also understand the quirks of modern firmware (I'm a firmware engineer). My purpose of posting was to document an anomoly, and to find out if it was pervasive and/or repeatable by others.

Anyway, thanks to all for your replies. Back to shooting...

[WaveDancer]

It happened a few times to me with K-7. It happened with a Leica compact too. Also with Minolta A1.
It never happened with Pentax ME Super, though :-)

It is random behaviour — at least as I could not perceive any pattern. But it happens on desktop and portable computers far more often, and cameras today are also a form of a computer, becoming increasingly more complicated. It is to be expected that each new future camera will crash more, as its software and processing, communication, etc. becomes more complicated.

Also consider that K-3 has a brand new software and chipsets in it — never tried before. The amount of unpolished routines may be overwhelming as it takes quite some time to polish up many bugs. Wasn't that a reason that K5-II was perhaps the most robust recent Pentax camera, with many annoying quirks (what we believed were "hardware problems") polished up as well? Because K5-II came last in the line to use a well-polished software over several previous models and years, and an imaging engine with all quirks well-known and documented. Similarly, a K-3 successor using same, but polished up software will be superior to the K-3.

I know this may sound like a joke, but it isn't: if you don't want to encounter such problems in the future, and cannot wait for ironing of all bugs, use real cameras — film or plate cameras — with minimum of electronics in them.

PS. Yes, I remember Minolta A2 was far superior to Minolta A1 in every respect, including reliability; which somewhat proves the point.

Yes, I think you have a point there - the user degrated as tester - the cheapest and most efficient way to find the bugs of new equipment at the costs and nerves of the client. It is common, but I still don't accept such tactics, what leaves me, of course, usually not with he newest models.... the problem is, once you have invested in expensives lenses you are stuck more or less to a brand... one of the main reasons for all the different mounts.

[stevebrot]

Has anyone else seen this behavior in the K-3 (lockup/freeze not accompanied by mirror flapping)?

I have had it happen once under circumstances similar to those that you describe with symptoms identical to yours. My K-3 has less than 300 shutter cycles and is running firmware v1.0.3. I read a recent comment where another user on this site theorized that it is a battery issue that resolves after a few charge cycles. Of course, it could also be the phase of the moon.


Steve

[pgamble]

I've had a few odd things like this and raised a thread on it but had little or no response. Kind of comforting seeing others having the same issues.


Those oddities for me so far are :


1. Rear screen on but unchanging. Camera responds to nothing except shutter (not tried to take picture, but it does focus of half press).
2. As above, but rear screen is blank.
3. Camera just hung and completely unresponsive.
4. Screen shows camera jumping between manual and AF (and also different exposure modes) - suggestion was this maybe contamination (shipping lubrication) on contacts.
5. Flash charged (360FGZ) but not firing for multiple pictures in a couple of sessions.


1, 2 and 3 always resolved (so far) by powering off and on once. Didn't happen for first 1800 shots. Has perhaps happened 3 times in last 1000.
4. very odd ... only happened with one lens whilst on tripod on one session - never since.
5. not used flash much, but this only happened on one of perhaps 10 sessions. I think it was a long lens (60-250) ... had to shoot perhaps 20 times to get 7 shots where flash worked. Fine in all other sessions.


My gut feel, like others is that these are just firmware glitches. Some may be come less regular or go away with later releases - but this is one complex little computer with many lines of code allow lots of things to interact in weird and wonderful ways. Whilst annoying, as an IT consultant, it doesn't surprise me. As long as they don't get more regular I'll be mostly happy.


The mirror flap is something entirely different. I have a nagging worry it will happen to me, and if it does ... I really won't be happy given Ricoh haven't even acknowledged it's a known issue.


Whilst I'm shooting a fair bit now .. It's a hobby and I'd be surprised if I'd shot more than 10000 images in the two year warranty period. That means getting an answer to potential things that will hit just after that warranty period are very important ... more so than those that get more value in a shorter time from their purchase.


Paul.

[juaneyes]

I do use film cameras extensively, and also understand the quirks of modern firmware (I'm a firmware engineer). My purpose of posting was to document an anomoly, and to find out if it was pervasive and/or repeatable by others.

Anyway, thanks to all for your replies. Back to shooting...

Hi OregonJim, I just received my K-3 last night, since then until today the lockups have repeated more than 20 times, the battery looks good, fully charged, I updated to 1.0.3., nothing helps. The camera stays frozen until switched off (even with OFF position it stays like that 20 seconds before it turns off)

[Al_Kahollick]

I'm stunned by how many folks think it's OK for their expensive cameras to freeze up, accepting that computerized products are prone to such behavior! Your car is more computerized than your camera, would it be acceptable if you had to pull the battery to get your car to start at random times? I think not, so why is it OK for cameras??


My K20 used to lock up randomly. I sent it in for repair just before my warranty ran out. They replaced the main board, and it hasn't locked up / froze since! This is not a firmware issue, all the upgrades they can pump out will not solve lock ups, it's a hardware issue!


Thankfully, neither my K30 nor my *ist DL have had lock up trouble or I certainly would've sent it in.


The K3 costs much more than my *ist DL, K20, or K30 did, I surely wouldn't want to fork out that much $$$ for a defective product!


Of course, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

[Erictator]

I can't speak to car computers specifically, but they have very basic tasks to do compared to your camera, and they are modular, one cpu doesn't run your nav and your engine, heh heh. Those CPU's are "hardened" and kept as simple as possible for the task I believe. But, as a 25yr computer tech I can tell you, the faster the CPU, the more demanding it is on the quality and speed of the memory you stick in the device, be it a computer, or a camera, also, the more demanding on the quality of the power source and manufacturing tolerances.

You can't with all fairness compare the reliability of a DL to a K3 on the same playing field really. You get to Ferarri level performance, and you understand why they are in the garage more often, at least until that level of performance becomes "the norm" and all the support products catch up.

My K-5 locked up once in the early firmware days, never did again...I formatted the card and didn't give further thought. If it did it again, I'd have chucked the card in the trash... and if it was a regular thing, I'd have sent it in for service like you did your K20. I tend not to panic, but maybe I'm just used to the idea that electronics are not infallible. All electronics have manufacturing tolerences and error correction because they know they are imperfect. Sometimes, the errors overwhelm the correction when there is a major snafu down stream.
Eric

I'm stunned by how many folks think it's OK for their expensive cameras to freeze up, accepting that computerized products are prone to such behavior! Your car is more computerized than your camera, would it be acceptable if you had to pull the battery to get your car to start at random times? I think not, so why is it OK for cameras??


My K20 used to lock up randomly. I sent it in for repair just before my warranty ran out. They replaced the main board, and it hasn't locked up / froze since! This is not a firmware issue, all the upgrades they can pump out will not solve lock ups, it's a hardware issue!


Thankfully, neither my K30 nor my *ist DL have had lock up trouble or I certainly would've sent it in.


The K3 costs much more than my *ist DL, K20, or K30 did, I surely wouldn't want to fork out that much $$$ for a defective product!


Of course, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

[pgamble]

I'm stunned by how many folks think it's OK for their expensive cameras to freeze up, accepting that computerized products are prone to such behavior! Your car is more computerized than your camera, would it be acceptable if you had to pull the battery to get your car to start at random times? I think not, so why is it OK for cameras??


My K20 used to lock up randomly. I sent it in for repair just before my warranty ran out. They replaced the main board, and it hasn't locked up / froze since! This is not a firmware issue, all the upgrades they can pump out will not solve lock ups, it's a hardware issue!


Thankfully, neither my K30 nor my *ist DL have had lock up trouble or I certainly would've sent it in.


The K3 costs much more than my *ist DL, K20, or K30 did, I surely wouldn't want to fork out that much $$$ for a defective product!


Of course, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Actually ... it is hugely common with cars. Most now have a lot of the non critical control managed through central consoles - the AV platform. Our 2008 S-Max used to regularly get cruise control not setting properly, climate control adjustment hanging, remote device access hanging, windscreen wipers behaving oddly. We've got rid of that now ... but most other vendors have same issues - BMW, VW ... French cars have been famous for it for 20 years.t

I agree it's not right, but just as these cars centralise so much in a single place now ... camera automation has got some complex ... it is inevitable that things won't always work in the way you'd hope. It's also very likely that in the 24 mth support focus, some of these issues will never be resolved before the developers direct attention to new products.

There will be a threshold based on device usage and recurrence that make such issues broadly unacceptable and that is what Ricoh will be focusing on. For many - professionals that can't afford to have failures or fussy hobbiests like me .. that threshold will be far lower .. and rightly so.

Where failures appear to both impact future life of a device (like the mirror flap) or they can potentially have a greater impact on capturing pictures (again ... mirror flap), I believe they should be acknowledged and dealt with far more proactlvely. Sadly, manufacturers these days (Apple are famous for it) are very reluctant to ever formally acknowledge an issue, particularly until after they have resolved it. This is obviously because it impacts sales and threatens pressure for recalls which could break a smaller organisation. Doesn't help us .. and if the mirror flap happens to me, I'll hit the roof .. but right now ... I know that probably won't help me. Because I'm a casual hobbiest .. it will probably happen the day after the 2nd yr warranty ends. Then I really will be mad.

Not a good situation ... and I understand arguments both sides .. we all need to decide the best response for our personal needs, sensitivities, appetite for stress etc.

Paul.

[awaldram]

Actually ... it is hugely common with cars. Most now have a lot of the non critical control managed through central consoles - the AV platform. Our 2008 S-Max used to regularly get cruise control not setting properly, climate control adjustment hanging, remote device access hanging, windscreen wipers behaving oddly. We've got rid of that now ... but most other vendors have same issues - BMW, VW ... French cars have been famous for it for 20 years.t

Paul.

Was going to say the same my in built sat nav regualry reboots ... normally waiting for me to be in a strange area totally reliant on it

My bluetooth refuse to connect to my phone but only when doin 70 down the motorway and an important call comes in

[stevebrot]

I am with the camp that considers the more serious reported issues to not be firmware related or firmware addressable.


Steve