Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
06-21-2014, 11:28 AM   #16
Pentaxian




Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Southern California
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 3,181
QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
I see no reason why, if we're talking about a competent service center. After all the seals are just stripes of material which needs to be placed in position, as indicated by the service manual.
QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Indeed, I did not see the K-3's service manual; but I doubt they changed things in a way which would make it impossible to service the camera without losing the weather sealing.
Why not losing control wheels and buttons, maybe the pentaprism?
I don't like the facts - in fact I think it's morally wrong. But the way service (particularly warranty work) functions, there's a "book" repair time and a standard flat fee paid for each repair. Remember, in the US repair work is subcontracted to CRIS, who repairs many different brands. There's no Pentax/Ricoh company pride involved. So it's in the service guy's best interest to "fix" it as quickly as possible, because that's what the company tells him - loud and clear. If they have a backlog there's pressure to catch up; even if there's not the company wants to pay fewer employees so it still incentivises working as quickly as possible over quality work. If he's quick by doing barely passable work he keeps his job and possibly even gets bonuses! If he's meticulous and treats the customer's camera like he'd treat his own, the customer is grateful and the company rewards him by showing him the door. They usually don't provide adequate mechanisms for monitoring quality - even if they wanted to! The system automatically roots out all the quality-oriented workers.

So you tell me - what's going to happen?


They take a calculated risk. How many customers are going to use the camera in significant rain? And even out of those, will any be able to prove it's our fault? After all, the Ricoh warranty technically won't cover water damage anyway, so we're in the clear - no one will hold us accountable.



WOW - it sounds even worse when I read what I just wrote! It's so cynical - and I hate it! - but it's so close to the way it actually works. There's little incentive to do right here, beyond a person's own conscience. And unfortunately, that's often not a good enough reason in many people's minds!


Last edited by DSims; 06-21-2014 at 11:47 AM.
06-21-2014, 11:47 AM   #17
Pentaxian




Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Romania
Posts: 8,406
I don't buy it. You're basically saying you can't trust any repair or adjustment to the level where you can expect to get your camera with missing pieces. Well, if it was an auto service I might call it "a regular occurrence" (I know some renowned for this), but not with cameras

I have no way of knowing what's happening at CRIS, but I have my sources... elsewhere. The procedures should properly respected, people trained and the manual service is made to be followed by the letter.
I'm not saying this is always the case, or that all technicians are equally trained, skilled and willing to perform a good job; just how it should be. A major service not being able to re-seal a camera, that's unthinkable.
06-21-2014, 11:50 AM   #18
Site Supporter
stevebrot's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Vancouver (USA)
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 26,166
QuoteOriginally posted by DSims Quote
WOW - it sounds even worse when I read what I just wrote! It's so cynical - and I hate it! - but it's so close to the way it actually works. There's little incentive to do right here, beyond a person's own conscience. And unfortunately, that's often not a good enough reason in many people's minds!
Yes, very cynical indeed.

Back to the K-3 seals. For a reality check, those of you who own a K-3 should simply open the memory card lid. See the seals on the inside of the lid? Now consider how the lid operates and tell me how good a seal you might expect at that potential point of entry after a few months of regular usage. After that, open the battery door and take a look there and imagine a bit of grit on the seal edge.

My expectation would be that the seals will do their job as long as the exposure is not for very long or the pressure (say from a hose) is not too great. An hour or so in light drizzle might be fine. Ten minutes in a steady downpour without toweling off afterwards may likely prove fatal.


Steve
06-21-2014, 11:58 AM   #19
Senior Member




Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 170
Original Poster
Oh what a pity, a real Pelican box will not make people cry but God knows ! my Siemens weather seal phone completely ruined in a down pour, so I put my shinely new and expensive HTC in the pocket of my expensive Goretec jacket, but the moisture killed it.

06-21-2014, 12:30 PM   #20
Veteran Member
OregonJim's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Willamette Valley, Oregon
Posts: 1,329
QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
My expectation would be that the seals will do their job as long as the exposure is not for very long or the pressure (say from a hose) is not too great. An hour or so in light drizzle might be fine. Ten minutes in a steady downpour without toweling off afterwards may likely prove fatal.
I think that's a pretty good assessment. I still tend to cover my camera and lenses in anything more than a light drizzle, mainly because none of my lenses are WR. The seals don't preclude us from still taking reasonable care of our gear. That said, we shouldn't obsess about it, either. Check this out:

06-21-2014, 12:44 PM   #21
Site Supporter
stevebrot's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Vancouver (USA)
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 26,166
QuoteOriginally posted by OregonJim Quote
I think that's a pretty good assessment. I still tend to cover my camera and lenses in anything more than a light drizzle, mainly because none of my lenses are WR. The seals don't preclude us from still taking reasonable care of our gear. That said, we shouldn't obsess about it, either. Check this out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eo61t5fH6Qw
Oh, yeah...heie's sand video!

---------- Post added 06-21-14 at 12:46 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by lotech Quote
so I put my shinely new and expensive HTC in the pocket of my expensive Goretec jacket, but the moisture killed it.
One must beware the pockets! They are often not seam-sealed.


Steve
06-21-2014, 01:57 PM   #22
Veteran Member




Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 320
I have only seen a couple of Zoom lenses that could possibly be Totally weather sealed. And only those prime lenses that have internal focus and no focusing ring could be totally weather sealed. The focusing ring being the weakest link along with the lens mount. Any lens that focuses or Zooms by moving the object lens, will act as a Bellows, Pulling in air and water into the lens. If this air and water can get through to the camera, you will have moisture in your camera. Water resistant lenses and cameras keeps your camera from being ruined when not in use. If you intend to use your Camera In the rain you get what you deserve. Take care of your equipment, And it will last you for years. My first Pentax camera, a SP 1000 still works. But only because I've taken care of it. The same goes for my K-3. If it starts raining, I get out of the rain. I will not trust my weather sealed camera to be TOTALLY WATERPROOF. Remember, it's water resistant not Waterproof. Stay safe and have fun. Joe.
06-21-2014, 02:05 PM   #23
Pentaxian




Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Nelson B.C.
Posts: 3,211
QuoteOriginally posted by DSims Quote
I don't like the facts - in fact I think it's morally wrong. But the way service (particularly warranty work) functions, there's a "book" repair time and a standard flat fee paid for each repair. Remember, in the US repair work is subcontracted to CRIS, who repairs many different brands. There's no Pentax/Ricoh company pride involved. So it's in the service guy's best interest to "fix" it as quickly as possible, because that's what the company tells him - loud and clear. If they have a backlog there's pressure to catch up; even if there's not the company wants to pay fewer employees so it still incentivises working as quickly as possible over quality work. If he's quick by doing barely passable work he keeps his job and possibly even gets bonuses! If he's meticulous and treats the customer's camera like he'd treat his own, the customer is grateful and the company rewards him by showing him the door. They usually don't provide adequate mechanisms for monitoring quality - even if they wanted to! The system automatically roots out all the quality-oriented workers.

So you tell me - what's going to happen?


They take a calculated risk. How many customers are going to use the camera in significant rain? And even out of those, will any be able to prove it's our fault? After all, the Ricoh warranty technically won't cover water damage anyway, so we're in the clear - no one will hold us accountable.



WOW - it sounds even worse when I read what I just wrote! It's so cynical - and I hate it! - but it's so close to the way it actually works. There's little incentive to do right here, beyond a person's own conscience. And unfortunately, that's often not a good enough reason in many people's minds!
That is how everything works. If the person doing the work doesn't care, the job will be done poorly.

A shop like CRIS will know by callbacks and returns how they are doing. There is no profit if it needs to be done twice, and it will happen if the work is not right. There will always be a few; people are not machines. But on a piecework warranty basis for a consumer good the quickest way to disappear is by shoddy workmanship.

It is a tough job and from what I've read here, they seem to do a pretty good job. The biggest complaint I've heard about these shops is people having to pay for the service. I have no sympathy at all for that.

06-21-2014, 02:27 PM   #24
Pentaxian




Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Southern California
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 3,181
QuoteOriginally posted by derekkite Quote
A shop like CRIS will know by callbacks and returns how they are doing. There is no profit if it needs to be done twice, and it will happen if the work is not right. There will always be a few; people are not machines. But on a piecework warranty basis for a consumer good the quickest way to disappear is by shoddy workmanship.

It is a tough job and from what I've read here, they seem to do a pretty good job. The biggest complaint I've heard about these shops is people having to pay for the service. I have no sympathy at all for that.
I think that overall CRIS has done pretty well, and that's probably why Ricoh is still using them. And the basic work is going to be done well most of the time - the few things I sent there (2 lenses?) seemed to be handled well enough, although I'd still rather send it to Eric and I trust him to do a better job.

But WR components being put back in place properly? How would they test for this anyway, even if they are being careful? It's not like the original work order's going to be for weather damage, so it won't be "sent back" for this, and worse yet there will be profit if it subsequently fails due to weather damage because it will be a new, billed job!
06-21-2014, 02:39 PM   #25
Site Supporter
stevebrot's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Vancouver (USA)
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 26,166
QuoteOriginally posted by DSims Quote
But WR components being put back in place properly? How would they test for this anyway
I guess the same way that Ricoh tests...visual inspection, perhaps? Much has been made on this site about the supposed risks regarding the WR seals being compromised during camera service. I would suggest that the risks are about the same as purchasing a camera new with defective seals. I would also suggest that the biggest threat to the camera's seals is regular use, not its service history.


Steve
06-21-2014, 03:09 PM   #26
Pentaxian




Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Nelson B.C.
Posts: 3,211
QuoteOriginally posted by DSims Quote
I think that overall CRIS has done pretty well, and that's probably why Ricoh is still using them. And the basic work is going to be done well most of the time - the few things I sent there (2 lenses?) seemed to be handled well enough, although I'd still rather send it to Eric and I trust him to do a better job.

But WR components being put back in place properly? How would they test for this anyway, even if they are being careful? It's not like the original work order's going to be for weather damage, so it won't be "sent back" for this, and worse yet there will be profit if it subsequently fails due to weather damage because it will be a new, billed job!
If a tech is sloppy with seals and the like, they probably will be sloppy in other areas as well. If they messed up a seal on a button, the operation would feel differently. Some specific seals may be tricky, but most of them would show in some way.

Last edited by derekkite; 06-21-2014 at 03:14 PM.
06-21-2014, 03:24 PM   #27
Pentaxian




Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Southern California
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 3,181
QuoteOriginally posted by derekkite Quote
f a tech is sloppy with seals and the like, they probably will be sloppy in other areas as well.
Perhaps, but it's also plausible he'd say to himself "I'm only supposed to fix this such and such problem - no one's paying me to seal it better than a Canon!"

In all of this we're assuming it's reasonably possible to re-seal the camera as well as in its original assembly, but is it really?
06-21-2014, 04:27 PM - 1 Like   #28
Site Supporter
stevebrot's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Vancouver (USA)
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 26,166
QuoteOriginally posted by DSims Quote
Perhaps, but it's also plausible he'd say to himself "I'm only supposed to fix this such and such problem - no one's paying me to seal it better than a Canon!"

In all of this we're assuming it's reasonably possible to re-seal the camera as well as in its original assembly, but is it really?
In all this we are assuming that the seals need to be replaced as part of the service. I am seeing a ton of assumptions supporting this rat hole.

Assumed:
  • That C.R.I.S. is primarily concerned with throughput to the exclusion of quality work
  • That a significant number of the techs that work there don't give a sh** about the quality of their work
  • That there is a known issue of WR failure after service*
  • That seal replacement is required for all service tasks
  • That the factory seal installation is more likely to result in good seal performance than the same job at C.R.I.S.
  • That the word "plausible" means something other than the dictionary definition
Can any of the above points be substantiated or are they all suppositions and the result of a sour stomach?


Steve

* This bad seals after service concern appears to be based on a pernicious "urban legend" rumor of some sorts. I don't know where it came from, but in some seven years being active on this site, I don't remember any issues or any talk about the possibility until about a month ago. What gives? Did I miss a flood of complaints regarding failed seals? This is crazy. What's next? Rumors about use of junk or salvaged parts?

Last edited by stevebrot; 06-21-2014 at 04:36 PM.
06-21-2014, 06:09 PM   #29
Pentaxian




Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Southern California
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 3,181
QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
In all this we are assuming that the seals need to be replaced as part of the service. I am seeing a ton of assumptions supporting this rat hole.
The only assumption being made is that the seals are disturbed in the process of disassembling the camera. And if they are then this could potentially be a problem, regardless of good will, Ill will, or anything else.

No "conspiracy" and nothing far fetched. Whether this is what's actually happening I don't know for sure. But there are certainly K-3 owners who are having problems after having had service, and I'm hearing of more WR problems with this model.
06-21-2014, 07:32 PM   #30
Site Supporter
RGlasel's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Saskatoon
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 1,234
QuoteOriginally posted by DSims Quote
The only assumption being made is that the seals are disturbed in the process of disassembling the camera. And if they are then this could potentially be a problem, regardless of good will, Ill will, or anything else.
Seriously, your camera could potentially explode. I don't know how, I've never heard of one exploding, but this isn't mathematics, you can't prove that it is impossible for a camera to explode. Especially when you consider the potential for a poorly motivated and untrained service technician to inadvertently drop explosive materials into the camera while it is disassembled.

I just looked at the more vulnerable seals on my K-30, such as the battery door and memory card door, and there is no way they are watertight in the face of greater pressure than what is required to close them. Like Stevebrot says, every time you open and close those doors, the seals get compromised and undoubtedly over time even the base level of weather resistance will be diminished. Still better than no seals whatsoever, and the overall fit of the camera components will still be tighter than a camera that isn't built to be weather-resistant. In the event a weather-resistant Pentax camera needs to be serviced, reinstalling simple seals like these is no more challenging than putting all of the screws back in place.

In order to retain the warranty repair business from whoever happens to build Pentax cameras, the service provider has to maintain high standards of workmanship, otherwise the manufacturer will lose too much money on after-sales service and customer satisfaction. I've got some experience in automotive service and warranty administration, including a stint in owner relations for an automobile manufacturer, and every time parts of the car have to be taken apart to fix a problem, the overall quality of the car decreases. Threads get looser, metal and plastic get weaker, and so on. While the car (or camera) is being assembled in the factory, environmental conditions are vastly better than when you or I are operating the car (or camera). Every manufactured thing fails while being used, given enough time.
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
bit, camera, design, dslr, dust, exposure, hope, k-3, k3, lcd, lenses, pentax k-3, plastic, rain, sand, seals, service, snow, steve, time, users, video, warrant, water, weather
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
K5 weather sealing? Dario79 Troubleshooting and Beginner Help 14 05-08-2014 03:04 AM
So Fuji is more advanced in weather-sealing? Reportage Non-Pentax Cameras: Canon, Nikon, etc. 3 02-26-2014 05:58 AM
Pentax weather sealing: is it the real deal? zoolander Troubleshooting and Beginner Help 5 12-14-2013 11:45 AM
weather sealing proven Wired Pentax DSLR Discussion 5 07-25-2012 07:27 PM
Pentax DA* weather sealing. How good is it? yeedub Pentax SLR Lens Discussion 8 02-18-2008 03:53 AM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:54 PM. | See also: NikonForums.com, part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top