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06-21-2014, 10:37 PM - 2 Likes   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by DSims Quote
No "conspiracy" and nothing far fetched. Whether this is what's actually happening I don't know for sure. But there are certainly K-3 owners who are having problems after having had service, and I'm hearing of more WR problems with this model.
Interesting, my impression has been just the opposite. Reported problems with the K-3 are limited to a very few issues and with one exception (crazy mirror), they have been minor. The crazy mirror issue has resulted in recurrence after service and/or replace, but that is the only thing that comes to mind. I did a recent K-3 purchase and did my research before laying out the cash. As for WR issues...again, I don't know that I have heard of a lot of problems with the WR except for a few users who were complaining because Ricoh voided the warranty due to the camera being full of water. I don't remember a single report of WR failing as a result of being serviced in the entire time I have been active on this site.

In the last couple of weeks I have read several accounts of people who are uncertain about having their Pentax dSLRs (all models, many still on warranty) serviced to fix very real issues because they were under the impression that doing so would potentially damage the WR seals.
Now where do you think anyone would get an idea like that? HINT
I have also seen other posts from forum members cautioning against using the service center due to potential issues with the seals. Now why would a person post that kind of nonsense, eh? Because its plausible or because they read it on another thread and is therefore "widely believed"? The way I look at it, we are witnessing a new bit of "Internet Truth" in the making. Pretty soon, it will be considered common knowledge that the seals will be compromised if you send a camera in for service and all suggestions of using service will be accompanied with a warning regarding the seals. Eventually descriptions for sale of a used camera will include, "Seals assumed good, never been serviced."


Steve

BTW...beware the exploding cameras. I have read recent reports that Pentax cameras sent for service may explode as a result.


Last edited by stevebrot; 06-21-2014 at 11:07 PM.
06-22-2014, 12:01 AM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
In the last couple of weeks I have read several accounts of people who are uncertain about having their Pentax dSLRs (all models, many still on warranty) serviced to fix very real issues because they were under the impression that doing so would potentially damage the WR seals.

Now where do you think anyone would get an idea like that? HINT

I have also seen other posts from forum members cautioning against using the service center due to potential issues with the seals. Now why would a person post that kind of nonsense, eh? Because its plausible or because they read it on another thread and is therefore "widely believed"? The way I look at it, we are witnessing a new bit of "Internet Truth" in the making.
It's the most plausible explanation I've heard yet for why some people are suddenly having trouble with the WR failing on their K-3s (which are too new to have the seals worn out) when they never had such problems on their K-5 or K-5 II's. It based on other threads I've read on this forum; it's not something I'm making up.

The other possibility is that Ricoh isn't making them as well from the factory - I certainly hope this isn't the case. Naturally it's possible that this is mere coincidence, but that's unlikely because people tend to repeat their behavior, especially when something's worked fine in the past. So even if the number of reports so far is small, there's a good likelihood it's an actual problem, because their new K-3s aren't handling the weather as well as their older K-5s did (and still do).
06-22-2014, 02:00 AM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by DSims Quote
It's the most plausible explanation I've heard yet for why some people are suddenly having trouble with the WR failing on their K-3s (which are too new to have the seals worn out) when they never had such problems on their K-5 or K-5 II's. It based on other threads I've read on this forum; it's not something I'm making up.

The other possibility is that Ricoh isn't making them as well from the factory - I certainly hope this isn't the case. Naturally it's possible that this is mere coincidence, but that's unlikely because people tend to repeat their behavior, especially when something's worked fine in the past. So even if the number of reports so far is small, there's a good likelihood it's an actual problem, because their new K-3s aren't handling the weather as well as their older K-5s did (and still do).
FWIW, I own a K5II and I did have a WR failure. I was on a 2-hour hike during which there was light (but steady) rain which did make us quite wet. I was using the 18-55WR exclusively. At some point, the camera started to freak out - the mirror flipped excessively on its own, some black images were generated, the shutter button stopped responding reliably, and the power dial did not shut down the camera. These are all the typical symptoms of WR failure I've seen in other people's posts - not exclusive to the K-3. Back at the hotel, I removed the battery, card, and lens, and dried the camera for several hours with all doors open. Luckily, the camera worked properly afterwards.

Needless to say, I was quite dissapointed. These were in no way extreme conditions, and well within what Pentax/Ricoh advertise the typical uses (and advantages) of their WR DSLRs.

So I grudgingly readjusted my expectations. I no longer trust the WR being more than an additional layer of protection. On the occasional water splash, I know I don't need to panic (which is nice), but I no longer expose my camera to rain.

In summary, I believe that there is a weakness in the WR sealing somewhere around the shutter or battery. I suspect that this weakness is common to most or all models, spanning both K-5s and K-3s and possibly others as well.
06-22-2014, 02:07 AM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by Noam Quote
FWIW, I own a K5II and I did have a WR failure. I was on a 2-hour hike during which there was light (but steady) rain which did make us quite wet. I was using the 18-55WR exclusively. At some point, the camera started to freak out - the mirror flipped excessively on its own, some black images were generated, the shutter button stopped responding reliably, and the power dial did not shut down the camera. These are all the typical symptoms of WR failure I've seen in other people's posts - not exclusive to the K-3. Back at the hotel, I removed the battery, card, and lens, and dried the camera for several hours with all doors open. Luckily, the camera worked properly afterwards.

Needless to say, I was quite dissapointed. These were in no way extreme conditions, and well within what Pentax/Ricoh advertise the typical uses (and advantages) of their WR DSLRs.

So I grudgingly readjusted my expectations. I no longer trust the WR being more than an additional layer of protection. On the occasional water splash, I know I don't need to panic (which is nice), but I no longer expose my camera to rain.

In summary, I believe that there is a weakness in the WR sealing somewhere around the shutter or battery. I suspect that this weakness is common to most or all models, spanning both K-5s and K-3s and possibly others as well.
Thanks for your input - makes sense. Hopefully we'll hear more from others as well!

06-22-2014, 05:52 AM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by lotech Quote
My previous (no longer have) Pentax DSLR all worked fine except condense on the top LCD, and my K3 already in the service center, I may have to pay for the service although it is under warranty, coz 'water damage' is not covered. I am not sure if it is ruined or not, it just random locks up and flipping mirror. And btw I heard of the flipping mirror problem in interval shooting but not my case, all my problem are due to the rain.

This is my 4th Pentax WS DSLR so I guess I know what WS means. My WR and DA* are fine without condense except on the filter, and I know I should always change lens indoor... I like Pentax because it is reasonably priced, small size, good quality, and Pentax has long history making camera, they know how to make good camera, but I hated to see something they claimed but not delivered well and got worse.

Frankly there is no better choice than Pentax considering all factors I mentioned, I still hope I can put my 'faith' on it especially the WS as I am an outdoor guy. Sorry for the miss-interpetation, as I am non native English speaker and very mad with the camera !
Hi Lotech,

I'm curious why you think the mirror-flapping was related to the rain specifically? The mirror-flapping / runaway mirror issue is not related to time-lapse/interval shooting... it can happen in all drive modes, in a variety of weather conditions. What other symptoms did your K3 have that made you think it was water damage?

You should still report your mirror-flapping incident on the mirror flapping thread. I'm going to add your name, but I'd love you to include all your details there too.
06-22-2014, 06:48 AM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by DSims Quote
It's the most plausible explanation I've heard yet for why some people are suddenly having trouble with the WR failing on their K-3s (which are too new to have the seals worn out) when they never had such problems on their K-5 or K-5 II's. It based on other threads I've read on this forum; it's not something I'm making up.

The other possibility is that Ricoh isn't making them as well from the factory - I certainly hope this isn't the case. Naturally it's possible that this is mere coincidence, but that's unlikely because people tend to repeat their behavior, especially when something's worked fine in the past. So even if the number of reports so far is small, there's a good likelihood it's an actual problem, because their new K-3s aren't handling the weather as well as their older K-5s did (and still do).
There were issues with the K5 as well. The advantage and disadvantage of a forum like this is that a single problem becomes known, and if there is a second one it is a trend. I have read of three instances of seal failure since I've had a pentax and followed the forums.
06-22-2014, 09:22 AM   #37
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Although there are weaknesses in the weather sealing of the Pentax K-3, that is not where the problem lies. The major weakness is in the Lens. For instance on my 18-135 WR lens, the object lens moves every time I zoom In or out. This acts as a bellows pulling air in and out every time I Zoom. Dust and moisture follows the air, and since it's pulled in through the mount, It gets trapped in the Camera. The more you use your zoom, the more moisture gets into your camera. This will happen anytime you use your camera in the rain, or in dusty areas. The answer is, don't use your Zoom in the rain. At least until they fix this problem. And the only way to fix it, is make the object lens stationary. All focusing and Zooming features of the lens should be Internal. Then the air would be displaced inside the camera and lens, not exposing it to the outside elements. The weather sealing is to Prevent accidental moisture getting in to your camera and Damaging it. It was not intended to allow you to use the camera In the rain. If your camera gets wet, dry it off before you use it. Stay safe and have fun. Joe.
06-22-2014, 09:31 AM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by derekkite Quote
There were issues with the K5 as well. The advantage and disadvantage of a forum like this is that a single problem becomes known, and if there is a second one it is a trend. I have read of three instances of seal failure since I've had a pentax and followed the forums.
And if both are mentioned in other threads it becomes a "flood of <fill in blank> failures".

In three years you recall three instances of WR failure. In seven years, I have read of somewhat more and at least three involving the current Pentax APS-C line (K-3, K-5II/IIs, K-50). The typical report is in the form of a complaint of condensation inside a WR lens or on the top/back LCD of a WR camera. Occasionally the symptom is sudden camera death with the report being a rant against Ricoh/Pentax for voiding the warranty because of camera abuse (water found in body). In one case (K-5) the user saw "waves" under the back LCD cover and experienced a "squishy" shutter release. As noted in comments above, water leakage has been reported for all APS-C WR bodies since the feature was added on the K10D, but the incidence for any one body has been low.

I strongly agree with people who post that the WR capabilities have been overstated by Pentax. Other makers feature seals on their upper tier bodies, but do not advertise it with photos of water soaked cameras. It is a nice feature, particularly in regards to dust incursion, but hardly a replacement for good judgement and reasonable care. One thing is for sure, the Pentax seals are a huge step up from an unsealed body. I was told by a repair tech that the most common cause of digital camera failure (all brands) is due to water in the electronics.


Steve


Last edited by stevebrot; 06-22-2014 at 09:46 AM.
06-22-2014, 09:51 AM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by promacjoe Quote
Although there are weaknesses in the weather sealing of the Pentax K-3
Really? Will you kindly cite qualified, independent tests documenting "weaknesses in the weather sealing of the K-3"?

Or is that statement mere hearsay - or worse, FUD?

The limiting factor in the competent repair of the best Pentax camera ever - the LX - is the dwindling supply of seals kits. The LX seals must be replaced every time the camera body is opened for a routine service. My 1989 LX was CLA'ed in January 2012, though it didn't need it, mostly to have it done while seals kits were still available.

FWIW, I don't rinse any of my cameras under running water. I don't stand in a torrential downpour shooting sports without some sort of a camera and lens raincoat. I don't carelessly expose cameras or lenses to rapid changes in temperature and humidity.

I also don't freak out if a drizzle happens while I'm shooting. Unlike my Canon and Nikon friends, I take my time putting things back in my bag and wipe them down when I get inside. I've seen more damage done throwing things in bags and pockets and running for cover than from a few exterior drops of water - even on unsealed cameras.

The only bad thing that has ever happened to a camera I've owned was to my MESuper. I had stored it on a shelf in my finished basement. We had a flood. According to Eric the entire interior of the camera is corroded due to moisture. Weather sealing wouldn't have helped.
06-22-2014, 09:54 AM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
And if both are mentioned in other threads it becomes a "flood of <fill in blank> failures".

In three years you recall three instances of WR failure. In seven years, I have read of somewhat more and at least three involving the current Pentax APS-C line (K-3, K-5II/IIs, K-50). The typical report is in the form of a complaint of condensation inside a WR lens or on the top/back LCD of a WR camera. Occasionally the symptom is sudden camera death with the report being a rant against Ricoh/Pentax for voiding the warranty because of camera abuse (water found in body). In one case (K-5) the user saw "waves" under the back LCD cover and experienced a "squishy" shutter release. As noted in comments above, water leakage has been reported for all APS-C WR bodies since the feature was added on the K10D, but the incidence for any one body has been low.

I strongly agree with people who post that the WR capabilities have been overstated by Pentax. Other makers feature seals on their upper tier bodies, but do not advertise it with photos of water soaked cameras. It is a nice feature, particularly in regards to dust incursion, but hardly a replacement for good judgement and reasonable care. One thing is for sure, the Pentax seals are a huge step up from an unsealed body. I was told by a repair tech that the most common cause of digital camera failure (all brands) is due to water in the electronics.


Steve
My camera and lens looks quite a bit like the advertisements on occasion. Without issue. I don't go out of my way to get it wet, it just does. I am considering the WR flash that Pentax sells as well, for the simple reason that something designed to be weather resistant will be better than something not.

As for warranty, I have no problem with the policy.
06-22-2014, 10:41 AM - 1 Like   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Really? Will you kindly cite qualified, independent tests documenting &quot;weaknesses in the weather sealing of the K-3&quot;?
.
the weather sealing problems are inherent to all Cameras, not just a K-3. And it's not due to poor quality workmanship by any service center. There are big problems with sealing up any camera. That's why there is no camera manufacturer that puts out a totally weather sealed SLR camera. there only a few cameras that are totally waterproof and those are underwater use. those are specialty cameras. DSLR cameras have a couple of major areas that are big problems. first is the door for the memory cards, the second is the door for the USB/HDMI connectors. The biggest problem is the lens mount. This is the one that gets the most abuse by the user. How many of us actually take the time to clean and inspect this seal before we mount the lens to the Camera.

my post did not imply any problems regarding any service center or service technician.
it mainly referred to the fact that when zooming, the lens must displace air and moisture/dust within that air. this problem has been in existence since before the first zoom lens existed. And it is not one that can be solved overnight.
Don't misunderstand me, Pentax has done a great job whether sealing it's cameras. But they are not waterproof. We must remember that. And they should not be USED in the rain. it is meant to allow you to get out of the rain without damaging the camera.

stay safe and have fun.
Joe.
06-22-2014, 01:34 PM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by promacjoe Quote
And they should not be USED in the rain. it is meant to allow you to get out of the rain without damaging the camera.
Kinda what I wrote. I misunderstaood - thought you were supporting the OP's claim.
06-22-2014, 02:02 PM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by DRabbit Quote
Hi Lotech,

I'm curious why you think the mirror-flapping was related to the rain specifically? The mirror-flapping / runaway mirror issue is not related to time-lapse/interval shooting... it can happen in all drive modes, in a variety of weather conditions. What other symptoms did your K3 have that made you think it was water damage?

You should still report your mirror-flapping incident on the mirror flapping thread. I'm going to add your name, but I'd love you to include all your details there too.
I read about the 'crazy mirror' thing when people taking interval shots, but I haven't done that on my K3, I just take normal shots in the rain, I did take intervals with my K5 without problem, and btw the K3 FW is 1.03.

Beside the crazy mirror thing both the top LCD and the viewfinder display are jumping, and the shutter button not responsive, the power switch as well, I have to remove the battery to reset the camera.

I never said or expected the camera is waterproof please don't get me wrong, and I know the difference between a cheap DWR treated jacket and an expensive Goretex, I will trust and use my Goretex in the rain because the label read 'Goretex' ! I believe most mid-high end cameras have some sort of protection against drizzle and splash, and Pentax put so much effort advertising the weather sealing capacity, also I read positive review so I trusted that. I am disappointed because I have no problem using my 3 other older cameras, K5, K7 and the K20D under the same weather condition, except condense at the top LCD and viewfinder.
06-22-2014, 02:42 PM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by promacjoe Quote
Although there are weaknesses in the weather sealing of the Pentax K-3, that is not where the problem lies. The major weakness is in the Lens. For instance on my 18-135 WR lens, the object lens moves every time I zoom In or out. This acts as a bellows pulling air in and out every time I Zoom. Dust and moisture follows the air, and since it's pulled in through the mount, It gets trapped in the Camera. The more you use your zoom, the more moisture gets into your camera. This will happen anytime you use your camera in the rain, or in dusty areas. The answer is, don't use your Zoom in the rain. At least until they fix this problem. And the only way to fix it, is make the object lens stationary. All focusing and Zooming features of the lens should be Internal. Then the air would be displaced inside the camera and lens, not exposing it to the outside elements.
I shot a meet in the rain (for a couple of hours ) with my K-5 and DA*50-135. I wouldn't normally use that lens because the focusing is too slow for many action shots, but this time it was an obvious choice because of the weather. I made no efforts to protect the camera or lens, other than putting the long lens hood on (and maybe a front filter). The long hood of that lens is ideal because it makes it very difficult for rain to reach the front element.

When I got back to the car I was careful to dry everything out and make sure what little moisture may have made it inside the camera or lens cleared out within the next couple of hours. I took apart whatever I could (which simply means I removed the front filter, and took the lens off the camera a little while after I dried it). I was careful to put in as dry a place as possible after the meet, outside of any bags or such! I watched it, to make sure no visible moisture remained inside beyond the hour or so it needed to re-acclimate to being dry and out of the rain.

I do believe that the design of the DA*50-135 helps, because it has a fixed physical length and the focusing/zooming happens inside.



I guess I didn't learn my lesson, because everything was fine and I'd probably do it again!

Last edited by DSims; 06-22-2014 at 02:47 PM.
06-22-2014, 02:45 PM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by lotech Quote
I read about the 'crazy mirror' thing when people taking interval shots, but I haven't done that on my K3, I just take normal shots in the rain, I did take intervals with my K5 without problem, and btw the K3 FW is 1.03.

Beside the crazy mirror thing both the top LCD and the viewfinder display are jumping, and the shutter button not responsive, the power switch as well, I have to remove the battery to reset the camera.

I never said or expected the camera is waterproof please don't get me wrong, and I know the difference between a cheap DWR treated jacket and an expensive Goretex, I will trust and use my Goretex in the rain because the label read 'Goretex' ! I believe most mid-high end cameras have some sort of protection against drizzle and splash, and Pentax put so much effort advertising the weather sealing capacity, also I read positive review so I trusted that. I am disappointed because I have no problem using my 3 other older cameras, K5, K7 and the K20D under the same weather condition, except condense at the top LCD and viewfinder.
Maybe it had something to do with the lens that you are using on your K5, K7 and the K20D. My new 18-135 WR lens actually pumps air and moisture into the camera body when zooming. However my older Sigma 70-200 f3.5, cannot easily do that, because the back lens acts as a Seal. Once the Sigma lenses in place, Moisture is less likely to get to the camera through the lens. Maybe this is why your other camera survived being used in the rain. There are more ways for water to enter the camera than just the water seal.

Stay safe and have fun.
Joe.
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