WOW!!!!! I didn't think high ISO would be THIS good!!

pastorbbc · 12-20-2014, 01:49 PM

A Couple From a few weeks ago

ISO 3200

ISO 6400

stevebrot · 12-21-2014, 01:34 PM

Originally posted by nicoprod

I'm confused.. Does in camera NR have an effect on DNG files?? I thought DNG files were untouched....

Yes, it does. If high ISO noise reduction is enabled it is applied to both DNG and PEF RAW files as part of the base image processing. If you were shooting with a K-5 series camera this is automatic. With the K-3 you have the ability to disable as well as fine tune the feature. The default applies noise reduction at ISOs as low as 800.

In-camera JPEG processing, on the other hand, includes the above plus additional NR applied. The final result is pretty darned good.

Steve

stevebrot · 12-21-2014, 01:54 PM

Originally posted by rawr

The in-camera NR settings only apply to JPEG's, not DNG.

Why rely on YouTube videos, which are often little more than anecdotal amateur chats, when you can check the issue out yourself with ease.

This is not true. The exif confirms the feature is active at ISO 800 and above and on visual examination of images generated from the RAW files, the difference is readily apparent.

Here is a DNG comparison at ISO 6400. The right hand side was done with Auto High ISO NR turned on. The left side has the feature turned off. Both had no NR applied in PP. The JPEG is a direct screen capture of a full resolution screen capture from Lightroom.

Steve

**nicoprod** · 12-21-2014, 07:34 PM

Originally posted by stevebrot

This is not true. The exif confirms the feature is active at ISO 800 and above and on visual examination of images generated from the RAW files, the difference is readily apparent.

Here is a DNG comparison at ISO 6400. The right hand side was done with Auto High ISO NR turned on. The left side has the feature turned off. Both had no NR applied in PP. The JPEG is a direct screen capture of a full resolution screen capture from Lightroom.

Steve

Hmmm. I can't see the difference...

**MJSfoto1956** · 12-22-2014, 07:48 AM

Originally posted by stevebrot

Here is a DNG comparison at ISO 6400. The right hand side was done with Auto High ISO NR turned on. The left side has the feature turned off. Both had no NR applied in PP. The JPEG is a direct screen capture of a full resolution screen capture from Lightroom.

I too don't see any difference.

YMMV

Michael

normhead · 12-22-2014, 07:58 AM

I don't either, tell us where to look to see the difference.....

stevebrot · 12-22-2014, 08:47 AM

Originally posted by nicoprod

Hmmm. I can't see the difference...

Originally posted by MJSfoto1956

I too don't see any difference.

YMMV

Michael

Originally posted by normhead

I don't either, tell us where to look to see the difference.....

I guess you need my magic monitor

The photos were originally taken as part of a test to detect the claims in the "Ed's" (photouniverse) video mentioned above that there is significant detail loss. I did not believe it was applied to RAW and was very surprised to see any noise suppression. On my better (calibrated) monitor, I can see a difference in the dark wood at left center right. On my laptop display they look different, but about the same amount amount of chroma noise. The difference is subtle, but present on all from the series I did for 6400 and 1600. (According to the exif, NR was Active(weak).) I was looking for missing (smeared) detail when noise was fully corrected in PP, not noise levels per se and the set-up was designed for that. The no-NR comparison images were thrown in for completeness

I would mention that what I see is a difference in noise patterns (artifact?) more that anything else. The images appear to have been treated differently in-camera.

Here is the ISO 1600 comparison with no NR applied in PP. Perhaps it will look better.

I suppose that I could do a repeat using manual settings for NR with the set-up being a truly dark scene and prepare proper seasonings and sauce for when I eat my hat with crow on the side.

Steve

Last edited by stevebrot; 12-22-2014 at 08:55 AM.

normhead · 12-22-2014, 09:19 AM - **1 Like**

Quote:

I guess you need my magic monitor

Pretty funny.... what else can you see on it?

stevebrot · 12-22-2014, 01:43 PM

Originally posted by normhead

Pretty funny.... what else can you see on it?

It has an x-ray feature, so I have to be careful when doing street photography.

Steve

dubsider · 12-22-2014, 01:50 PM

Originally posted by Michaelina2

AND... Want to do more...?
Try this in LR (should take less than 10 seconds)...

1. Open the DNG file in the DEVELOP module.
2. Open the DETAIL dialog box and go to the Noise Reduction set of sliders.
3. Press the "Alt" key on your PC to turn the image to B&W, then with your mouse pointer, push the Luminance slider to the place on the scale where the noise speckles start to fade, then adjust to suit your fancy (some like to leave a few speckles to keep the image from looking plastic...). Be patient as it may take a moment for the effect to become apparent.
4. Press the Alt key, again and adjust the COLOR slider to remove the color speckles. Again, be patient as it may take a moment or two for the color speckles to dissolve.
5. Go to the SHARPENING set of sliders (above the NR set in the DETAIL dialog box).
6. In your mind, subtract the Luminance adjustment number from 100 and enter that calculation into the AMOUNT slider's adjustment result box. For example, if your Luminance number was 30, enter 70. Notice that the luminance noise you erased earlier has returned. UGH ! Get rid of it by...
7. Press the Alt key on your PC, again, and adjust the MASKING slider to the point that your image appears to be a B&W line drawing.
8. Release the Alt key...

BINGO ! You have killed the image noise AND sharpened it, as needed to fit your taste. Now, let's get that pesky WB under control...

(H/T: https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/172-pentax-k-3/247974-k-3-noise-2.html#post2644938 )

Cheers... M

Michaelina2: I am curious about the others NR sliders: Detail, contrast and Detail and Smoothness.. and under Sharpening the Radius and Detail

stevebrot · 12-22-2014, 10:03 PM

Originally posted by dubsider

Michaelina2: I am curious about the others NR sliders: Detail, contrast and Detail and Smoothness.. and under Sharpening the Radius and Detail

According to Martin Evening's "The Adobe Photoshop Lightroom 5 Book" discussion of noise reduction for process 2010/2012:

(Luminance)Detail slider: "...acts like a threshold control for the main Luminance slider. As you drag to the right, this reduces the amount of smoothing and preserves more detail but may cause noisy areas of the image to be inappropriately detected as detail and therefore not get smoothed. As you drag to the left this smooths the noise, but be warned that some detail areas may be inappropriately detected as noise and important image detail may get treated as noise and also become smoothed.
(Luminance)Contrast slider: "...the default setting is 0. The smoothest results are achieved by leaving the luminance Contrast slider at the default zero setting...Dragging the slider to the right allows you to preserve more of the contrast and texture in the image, but at the same time can lead to increased mottling..."
(Color)Detail slider: "As you increase the (Color) detail slider beyond the default setting of 50, you'll notice how it preserves more detail and prevents the color edges from bleeding or becoming desaturated. Just be aware that as you increase the (Color) detail setting, this can leat to color speckles appearing along the preserved edges.

The (Color)Smoothness slider is not addressed in the book.

It appears there is a lot of flexibility available. I have not had much chance to play with these. One of the most important things I took away from the book is that Luminance correction produces loss of detail as a side-effect (duh) and is used in dynamic balance with the sharpening sliders. The color NR is usually the more noticeable and the more difficult to manage. Color bleeding and/or detail desaturation are common side-effects. Evening suggests viewing the color NR correction at 400% magnification.

Steve

**Michaelina2** · 12-22-2014, 11:21 PM

Originally posted by dubsider

Michaelina2: I am curious about the others NR sliders: Detail, contrast and Detail and Smoothness.. and under Sharpening the Radius and Detail

In the field, I capture lots of images. The procedure I suggest is used to fine tune the keepers. When it comes to post-processing, I try to put my experience to work during the capture phase by trying not to get in the way of the camera and lens doing their job. So for me, it's "less is more;" that is, when I get home, if an image strikes me as needing more than five minutes total bringing it to a satisfactory conclusion, I reject the image and move on.

Also, in addition to LR, I use a few NIK plug-ins I've found that seem more efficient than the other LR sliders, you mention.

Cheers... M

dubsider · 12-24-2014, 08:03 AM

Originally posted by Michaelina2

In the field, I capture lots of images. The procedure I suggest is used to fine tune the keepers. When it comes to post-processing, I try to put my experience to work during the capture phase by trying not to get in the way of the camera and lens doing their job. So for me, it's "less is more;" that is, when I get home, if an image strikes me as needing more than five minutes total bringing it to a satisfactory conclusion, I reject the image and move on.

Also, in addition to LR, I use a few NIK plug-ins I've found that seem more efficient than the other LR sliders, you mention.

Cheers... M

@michaelina.. to confirm your process.. are the other settings mentioned zeroed out?

**Michaelina2** · 12-24-2014, 07:42 PM

Originally posted by dubsider

@michaelina.. to confirm your process.. are the other settings mentioned zeroed out?

Thanks for the question...

When I open a DNG file, it's processed through a "Zeroed Out" preset I created to remove the default settings in all global slider sets found in the DEVELOPMENT module (BASIC, TONE CURVE, etc.)... and all except for the "*" (star) sliders noted in DETAIL, below:

Sharpen Amount = 0 (this slider needs to be greater than zero before radius, detail and masking become activated. )
Sharpen: Radius = 1.0* (stays unchanged, even if activated)
Sharpen: Detail 50* (stays unchanged, even if activated
Masking = 0* (used to mask areas to prevent the re-emergence of suppressed noise)

NR - Luminance Amount =0 (this slider needs to be greater than zero before lum. detail and lum. contrast become activated)
NR - Luminance Detail = 50* (stays unchanged, even if activated)
NR - Luminance Contrast = 0* (stays unchanged, even if activated)

NR - Color = 0 (this slider needs to be greater than zero before color detail and smoothness become activated)
NR - Color Detail = 50* (stays unchanged, even if activated)
NR - Smoothness = 50* (stays unchanged, even if activated)

My go to kits at the moment are the Q7 and K-3. Keep in mind: I DO NOT post process to save a crap image. I only select candidate images that are OOC 95+% good to go, technically. Also, if an image ISO from the Q7 is less than (say) 400, or less than (say) 800 from the K-3, I usually don't fuss around with the tools in DETAIL. The 3-5 minute fine tuning routine I employ on images I intend to publish adds only micro-amounts of fine tuning. The intent is to make image look just right while letting its pp work to pass by un-noticed.

Cheers... M

Ofer Hadas · 12-25-2014, 11:50 AM

I am reading this thread since I saw a higher noise on the K-3 than I used to see in my K-5. few questions I was wondering about :
How do you get ISO 16,000? my K-3 ISO scale goes 6400, 12800 25600 . is there fine tune for the ISO ?

what software do you use to reduce the noise from the DNG files :
Thanks

12-21-2014, 01:54 PM	#48
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by rawr The in-camera NR settings only apply to JPEG's, not DNG. Why rely on YouTube videos, which are often little more than anecdotal amateur chats, when you can check the issue out yourself with ease. This is not true. The exif confirms the feature is active at ISO 800 and above and on visual examination of images generated from the RAW files, the difference is readily apparent. Here is a DNG comparison at ISO 6400. The right hand side was done with Auto High ISO NR turned on. The left side has the feature turned off. Both had no NR applied in PP. The JPEG is a direct screen capture of a full resolution screen capture from Lightroom. Steve Last edited by stevebrot; 12-21-2014 at 01:59 PM.

12-22-2014, 01:50 PM	#55
dubsider Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Georgia Posts: 27	the other settings Originally posted by Michaelina2 AND... Want to do more...? Try this in LR (should take less than 10 seconds)... 1. Open the DNG file in the DEVELOP module. 2. Open the DETAIL dialog box and go to the Noise Reduction set of sliders. 3. Press the "Alt" key on your PC to turn the image to B&W, then with your mouse pointer, push the Luminance slider to the place on the scale where the noise speckles start to fade, then adjust to suit your fancy (some like to leave a few speckles to keep the image from looking plastic...). Be patient as it may take a moment for the effect to become apparent. 4. Press the Alt key, again and adjust the COLOR slider to remove the color speckles. Again, be patient as it may take a moment or two for the color speckles to dissolve. 5. Go to the SHARPENING set of sliders (above the NR set in the DETAIL dialog box). 6. In your mind, subtract the Luminance adjustment number from 100 and enter that calculation into the AMOUNT slider's adjustment result box. For example, if your Luminance number was 30, enter 70. Notice that the luminance noise you erased earlier has returned. UGH ! Get rid of it by... 7. Press the Alt key on your PC, again, and adjust the MASKING slider to the point that your image appears to be a B&W line drawing. 8. Release the Alt key... BINGO ! You have killed the image noise AND sharpened it, as needed to fit your taste. Now, let's get that pesky WB under control... (H/T: https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/172-pentax-k-3/247974-k-3-noise-2.html#post2644938 ) Cheers... M Michaelina2: I am curious about the others NR sliders: Detail, contrast and Detail and Smoothness.. and under Sharpening the Radius and Detail

12-22-2014, 10:03 PM	#56
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by dubsider Michaelina2: I am curious about the others NR sliders: Detail, contrast and Detail and Smoothness.. and under Sharpening the Radius and Detail According to Martin Evening's "The Adobe Photoshop Lightroom 5 Book" discussion of noise reduction for process 2010/2012: (Luminance)Detail slider: "...acts like a threshold control for the main Luminance slider. As you drag to the right, this reduces the amount of smoothing and preserves more detail but may cause noisy areas of the image to be inappropriately detected as detail and therefore not get smoothed. As you drag to the left this smooths the noise, but be warned that some detail areas may be inappropriately detected as noise and important image detail may get treated as noise and also become smoothed. (Luminance)Contrast slider: "...the default setting is 0. The smoothest results are achieved by leaving the luminance Contrast slider at the default zero setting...Dragging the slider to the right allows you to preserve more of the contrast and texture in the image, but at the same time can lead to increased mottling..." (Color)Detail slider: "As you increase the (Color) detail slider beyond the default setting of 50, you'll notice how it preserves more detail and prevents the color edges from bleeding or becoming desaturated. Just be aware that as you increase the (Color) detail setting, this can leat to color speckles appearing along the preserved edges. The (Color)Smoothness slider is not addressed in the book. It appears there is a lot of flexibility available. I have not had much chance to play with these. One of the most important things I took away from the book is that Luminance correction produces loss of detail as a side-effect (duh) and is used in dynamic balance with the sharpening sliders. The color NR is usually the more noticeable and the more difficult to manage. Color bleeding and/or detail desaturation are common side-effects. Evening suggests viewing the color NR correction at 400% magnification. Steve Last edited by stevebrot; 12-22-2014 at 10:44 PM.

12-22-2014, 11:21 PM	#57
Michaelina2 Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: SE Michigan USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,300	Originally posted by dubsider Michaelina2: I am curious about the others NR sliders: Detail, contrast and Detail and Smoothness.. and under Sharpening the Radius and Detail In the field, I capture lots of images. The procedure I suggest is used to fine tune the keepers. When it comes to post-processing, I try to put my experience to work during the capture phase by trying not to get in the way of the camera and lens doing their job. So for me, it's "less is more;" that is, when I get home, if an image strikes me as needing more than five minutes total bringing it to a satisfactory conclusion, I reject the image and move on. Also, in addition to LR, I use a few NIK plug-ins I've found that seem more efficient than the other LR sliders, you mention. Cheers... M Last edited by Michaelina2; 12-22-2014 at 11:27 PM.

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12-20-2014, 01:49 PM	#46
pastorbbc Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Morganton, NC Posts: 148	A Couple From a few weeks ago ISO 3200 ISO 6400

12-21-2014, 01:34 PM	#47
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by nicoprod I'm confused.. Does in camera NR have an effect on DNG files?? I thought DNG files were untouched.... Yes, it does. If high ISO noise reduction is enabled it is applied to both DNG and PEF RAW files as part of the base image processing. If you were shooting with a K-5 series camera this is automatic. With the K-3 you have the ability to disable as well as fine tune the feature. The default applies noise reduction at ISOs as low as 800. In-camera JPEG processing, on the other hand, includes the above plus additional NR applied. The final result is pretty darned good. Steve

12-21-2014, 07:34 PM	#49
nicoprod Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: New Berlin, WI Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 528	Originally posted by stevebrot This is not true. The exif confirms the feature is active at ISO 800 and above and on visual examination of images generated from the RAW files, the difference is readily apparent. Here is a DNG comparison at ISO 6400. The right hand side was done with Auto High ISO NR turned on. The left side has the feature turned off. Both had no NR applied in PP. The JPEG is a direct screen capture of a full resolution screen capture from Lightroom. Steve Hmmm. I can't see the difference...

12-22-2014, 07:48 AM	#50
MJSfoto1956 Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Boston Posts: 1,305	Originally posted by stevebrot Here is a DNG comparison at ISO 6400. The right hand side was done with Auto High ISO NR turned on. The left side has the feature turned off. Both had no NR applied in PP. The JPEG is a direct screen capture of a full resolution screen capture from Lightroom. I too don't see any difference. YMMV Michael

12-22-2014, 07:58 AM	#51
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	I don't either, tell us where to look to see the difference.....

12-22-2014, 08:47 AM	#52
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by nicoprod Hmmm. I can't see the difference... Originally posted by MJSfoto1956 I too don't see any difference. YMMV Michael Originally posted by normhead I don't either, tell us where to look to see the difference..... I guess you need my magic monitor The photos were originally taken as part of a test to detect the claims in the "Ed's" (photouniverse) video mentioned above that there is significant detail loss. I did not believe it was applied to RAW and was very surprised to see any noise suppression. On my better (calibrated) monitor, I can see a difference in the dark wood at left center right. On my laptop display they look different, but about the same amount amount of chroma noise. The difference is subtle, but present on all from the series I did for 6400 and 1600. (According to the exif, NR was Active(weak).) I was looking for missing (smeared) detail when noise was fully corrected in PP, not noise levels per se and the set-up was designed for that. The no-NR comparison images were thrown in for completeness I would mention that what I see is a difference in noise patterns (artifact?) more that anything else. The images appear to have been treated differently in-camera. Here is the ISO 1600 comparison with no NR applied in PP. Perhaps it will look better. I suppose that I could do a repeat using manual settings for NR with the set-up being a truly dark scene and prepare proper seasonings and sauce for when I eat my hat with crow on the side. Steve Last edited by stevebrot; 12-22-2014 at 08:55 AM.

12-22-2014, 09:19 AM - 1 Like	#53
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	Quote: I guess you need my magic monitor Pretty funny.... what else can you see on it?

12-22-2014, 01:43 PM	#54
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by normhead Pretty funny.... what else can you see on it? It has an x-ray feature, so I have to be careful when doing street photography. Steve

12-24-2014, 08:03 AM	#58
dubsider Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Georgia Posts: 27	Originally posted by Michaelina2 In the field, I capture lots of images. The procedure I suggest is used to fine tune the keepers. When it comes to post-processing, I try to put my experience to work during the capture phase by trying not to get in the way of the camera and lens doing their job. So for me, it's "less is more;" that is, when I get home, if an image strikes me as needing more than five minutes total bringing it to a satisfactory conclusion, I reject the image and move on. Also, in addition to LR, I use a few NIK plug-ins I've found that seem more efficient than the other LR sliders, you mention. Cheers... M @michaelina.. to confirm your process.. are the other settings mentioned zeroed out?

12-24-2014, 07:42 PM	#59
Michaelina2 Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: SE Michigan USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,300	Originally posted by dubsider @michaelina.. to confirm your process.. are the other settings mentioned zeroed out? Thanks for the question... When I open a DNG file, it's processed through a "Zeroed Out" preset I created to remove the default settings in all global slider sets found in the DEVELOPMENT module (BASIC, TONE CURVE, etc.)... and all except for the "" (star) sliders noted in DETAIL, below: Sharpen Amount = 0 (this slider needs to be greater than zero before radius, detail and masking become activated. ) Sharpen: Radius = 1.0 (stays unchanged, even if activated) Sharpen: Detail 50* (stays unchanged, even if activated Masking = 0* (used to mask areas to prevent the re-emergence of suppressed noise) NR - Luminance Amount =0 (this slider needs to be greater than zero before lum. detail and lum. contrast become activated) NR - Luminance Detail = 50* (stays unchanged, even if activated) NR - Luminance Contrast = 0* (stays unchanged, even if activated) NR - Color = 0 (this slider needs to be greater than zero before color detail and smoothness become activated) NR - Color Detail = 50* (stays unchanged, even if activated) NR - Smoothness = 50* (stays unchanged, even if activated) My go to kits at the moment are the Q7 and K-3. Keep in mind: I DO NOT post process to save a crap image. I only select candidate images that are OOC 95+% good to go, technically. Also, if an image ISO from the Q7 is less than (say) 400, or less than (say) 800 from the K-3, I usually don't fuss around with the tools in DETAIL. The 3-5 minute fine tuning routine I employ on images I intend to publish adds only micro-amounts of fine tuning. The intent is to make image look just right while letting its pp work to pass by un-noticed. Cheers... M

12-25-2014, 11:50 AM	#60
Ofer Hadas Forum Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Israel Photos: Gallery Posts: 96	I am reading this thread since I saw a higher noise on the K-3 than I used to see in my K-5. few questions I was wondering about : How do you get ISO 16,000? my K-3 ISO scale goes 6400, 12800 25600 . is there fine tune for the ISO ? what software do you use to reduce the noise from the DNG files : Thanks