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View Poll Results: How important is the on-board flash?
I would consider buying the K-3 II regardless of whether or not it has a flash 16365.20%
I may buy the K-3 II, but the lack of a flash is discouraging 5923.60%
I would not buy the K-3 II because it lacks a flash 2811.20%
Voters: 250. You may not vote on this poll

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04-24-2015, 02:44 PM   #91
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QuoteOriginally posted by ScooterMaxi Jim Quote
It's mostly a matter of how much complication are you willing to tolerate? Radio triggers are two devices, both requiring switches, connections, batteries - all of which should be tested for every shoot, and duplicated in case of possible failure (the professional's creed). That's a lot of extra effort and opportunity for failure. I use radio triggers on occasion, but must admit it reminds of going to the dentist; it isn't fun and nothing particularly good can come of it.
My experience with radio triggers is that they are a lot more consistent and dependable than using optically fired slaves. Both work fine, but the newer radio triggers out there are very nice.

04-24-2015, 07:02 PM   #92
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Here's my conclusion after considering pixel shift and rumors that the FF also omits an OBF:

This camera is somewhat more specialized than the K-3.

Consider: what types of shooting will actually benefit from the pixel shift technology?
  • Macro
    Ring Flash or Studio Light
  • Architecture
    No Flash, generally
  • Product
    Studio Light or Ring Flash
  • Some Landscape
    No Flash
  • Nature / Birding
    Shoe Mount or No Flash, depending on subject

Consider: what types of shooting will actually benefit from the internal GPS?
  • Macro
    Probably not, unless it is field Macro
  • Architecture
    Definitely
  • Product
    Probably not
  • Some Landscape
    Definitely
  • Nature / Birding
    Most Likely

All that has happened is the K-3 II is less a generalist flagship dSLR than was the K-3. Given the addition of Pixel Shift Technology, it seems to make sense Ricoh would alter the in-built features to suit the most likely users / targeted user group for that technology. More generalist users and users who have different narrow uses will simply need to use an external flash - rather than users of GPS needing to use an external GPS location device.

One might disagree with Ricoh's market tactics for this camera body but that's all it is - market tactics.
Yes for birds/wildlife the gps will probably be the most useful..now just need an app to send the pic & coordinates to the local Bird society
04-24-2015, 08:36 PM - 2 Likes   #93
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Wow...I never had an inkling this was such a hot topic !
I kept kinda quiet about not wanting the Pop-up flash but never dreamed it would turn into this.
We should all take a deep breath and quit beating each other up over disagreeing what is best and worse , right or wrong. All of us have a variety of shooting uses and styles for our cameras , and what works for one may not work for someone else.
I do mainly landscapes but also use fill once in a while. I have no idea how to use flash off a radio trigger but don't condemn anyone that prefers it over off camera or the up until now the on board Pop-up.
I think just because Pentax has left it off has a lot of disgruntled people that are either unfamiliar with adapting or knot knowing how to adapt with the lack of something that has been there for years.
The K3II is probably going to be one of the best bodies ever and here we are griping and arguing about it......Everyone needs to take a chill pill for a bit.
I haven't been here very long but notice every time a new model is released it seems the forum starts breeding a hot bed of dissention and discussions for a while similar to this. I cant imagine whats going to transpire when FF hit our hands ?

Last edited by Dlanor Sekao; 04-24-2015 at 08:54 PM.
04-24-2015, 09:11 PM   #94
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QuoteQuote:
I can also see gps and an electronic compass built-into a camera as a possible safety measure if one is really out there in the woods and perhaps "lost" or in need of help.
And hoping it has not sucked the life out of your batteries :-)

04-24-2015, 09:29 PM   #95
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Never used mine since i got the camera.. to me, and the kind of shooting that i do is a useless feature.. if i want flash I use an external..and if i was remote control I use a Cactus V6 .. much better than using a pop up flash, even for controlling other flashes.
04-25-2015, 01:02 AM   #96
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Well FWIW, and I understand the purist arguments against the built-in, losing it is a big disappointment for me.

I have two 540-FGZs that I use remotely at parties and small gigs. They sit on their stands, usually pointing at a white wall or ceiling, and I fire them from the pop-up. That gets me great exposure from pretty much anywhere in the room since PTTL just figures it all out. Not sure how a 3rd party wireless trigger is going to do that. So I'm forced now to add a controller to the hot shoe - more bulk which I just don't want when I'm moving around a room trying to be as inconspicuous as possible.

I also often use the pop-up for a little fill-in outdoors, where I really don't want to have to carry more stuff.

For me, it's removing a feature I use a lot, and replacing it with a feature that I may use occasionally.

That's a big lose for me. Love the other additions, I'd have bought the K-3 II in an instant without the GPS. Not so sure now.
04-25-2015, 02:17 AM - 1 Like   #97
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dlanor Sekao Quote
…I haven't been here very long but notice every time a new model is released it seems the forum starts breeding a hot bed of dissention and discussions for a while similar to this. I cant imagine whats going to transpire when FF hit our hands ?
I used to be a bit shocked by the reactions generated by the changes that accompanied each new model, but after a while I realised that these mostly small expressions of frustration can be amplified by the deceptively fragmented nature of discussion on the Internet. When you overlay this with the inevitable misunderstandings of cultural and language differences in those discussions, things can occasionally appear to get out of hand. Some people revel in robust discussion, while others are offended by it. The ultimate expression of disrespect, of course, is to remove posts by certain people from your view, but I don't recommend that even though it's become something of a badge of moral or intellectual superiority by some, or perhaps just frustration in other instances. Tolerance isn't propagated by ghettoes, though, and thankfully most people who remain here are tolerant and polite.

I'm still reflecting on the discussions about the K-3ii, before I decide which way I'll move, if at all, but I'm grateful for the input of all on the subject, robustly asserted or not.
04-25-2015, 03:19 AM - 1 Like   #98
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dlanor Sekao Quote
Wow...I never had an inkling this was such a hot topic !
I kept kinda quiet about not wanting the Pop-up flash but never dreamed it would turn into this.
We should all take a deep breath and quit beating each other up over disagreeing what is best and worse , right or wrong. All of us have a variety of shooting uses and styles for our cameras , and what works for one may not work for someone else.
I do mainly landscapes but also use fill once in a while. I have no idea how to use flash off a radio trigger but don't condemn anyone that prefers it over off camera or the up until now the on board Pop-up.
I think just because Pentax has left it off has a lot of disgruntled people that are either unfamiliar with adapting or knot knowing how to adapt with the lack of something that has been there for years.
The K3II is probably going to be one of the best bodies ever and here we are griping and arguing about it......Everyone needs to take a chill pill for a bit.
I haven't been here very long but notice every time a new model is released it seems the forum starts breeding a hot bed of dissention and discussions for a while similar to this. I cant imagine whats going to transpire when FF hit our hands ?
The problem is that so many people are afflicted with the "if it isn't perfect for me, it isn't good for anyone," syndrome. It can be an entry level camera that they aren't really interested in buying, but Pentax left off auto focus points or, offered colors or, didn't enable mechanical SR in video mode. I just don't understand this perspective, though.

With any new camera gear that comes out, I ask myself if I want/need it and if I can afford it. If it is 99 percent OK, but there is a feature that doesn't work for me, then the question is if I can work around that. If there isn't a pop up flash, how often do I use it and am I OK putting a flash in the hot shoe to take care of those moments when I might have wanted to use it.

For me that's OK, but if not, then I would either buy another K3 (or K5 II) if I needed a new camera or, wait. Although probably the tougher thing for folks to deal with is when the full frame camera comes out and doesn't have a pop up flash. I imagine that will be devastating.

04-25-2015, 03:31 AM   #99
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x posted

I'm of the opinion that Ricoh's maket research informed them that, Pentaxians as a group, are aging and subsequently becoming more forgetful, so they have included the GPS on board as part of their "Corporate Responsabilty" program (I suspect it will have a "Find your way home" function).

In addition, this research identified that sudden bursts of bright light can be quite disorientating for elderly persons, so it was obvious to them the flash had to go for our own protection.

And, of course, the extra stop of anti shake effectiveness, is also there to just compensate for us aging.
04-25-2015, 03:58 AM   #100
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I actually typed a whole long text on the power of the written, over the spoken, word, but deleted it. Way too off topic.

When I first heard it had no pop up flash, it did seem odd. After thinking about it, I realized that for most of the 40+ years that I have used an SLR or a DSLR there was no built in flash on them. So it is not a big deal to me.
04-25-2015, 04:57 AM   #101
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Interesting to see how worked up people can get over relatively minor features on a minor upgrade of an existing camera.

I think a small hot shoe emitter/controller like @derekkite would be a great stop gap solution until Ricoh gets out a flash system that makes Nikon's system look medieval

Personally I think carrying a small GPS logger is less of an inconvenience than carrying a small flash for the kind of shooting I do the most. And yes, I do use the on-board flash on rare occasions.

All in all, though, it's no big deal to me. I can live well without either.
04-25-2015, 06:30 AM   #102
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
The problem is that so many people are afflicted with the "if it isn't perfect for me, it isn't good for anyone," syndrome. It can be an entry level camera that they aren't really interested in buying, but Pentax left off auto focus points or, offered colors or, didn't enable mechanical SR in video mode. I just don't understand this perspective, though.

With any new camera gear that comes out, I ask myself if I want/need it and if I can afford it. If it is 99 percent OK, but there is a feature that doesn't work for me, then the question is if I can work around that. If there isn't a pop up flash, how often do I use it and am I OK putting a flash in the hot shoe to take care of those moments when I might have wanted to use it.

For me that's OK, but if not, then I would either buy another K3 (or K5 II) if I needed a new camera or, wait. Although probably the tougher thing for folks to deal with is when the full frame camera comes out and doesn't have a pop up flash. I imagine that will be devastating.

Yep, there was a discussion in February about no on board on the FF and the replies were similar to what they were for the K-3II; I am sure it will happen again when it is released....It has gotten to the point where this discussions on the lack of onboard has been going back and forth not only here, also in DPR and to a more limited extent, the Ricoh forum because there are not many people post on it.
04-25-2015, 07:01 AM - 1 Like   #103
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
My experience with radio triggers is that they are a lot more consistent and dependable than using optically fired slaves. Both work fine, but the newer radio triggers out there are very nice.
Roger that. Don't know what they are today, but the k10/K20 used to be limited to 10 ft. while even cheap radio triggers can go 100 ft or more. For Pentax, they only work in manual, but i find that manual is more easy to figure out than PTTL - and one doesn't have the blinking on the TTL preflash. On a few occasions i set up scenes for promo shots, and shifted the radio trigger from my K5 to a friend's Canon and he would take a few shots without changing anything on scene. Manual is great. And today's Cactus apparently let one adjust power levels remotely with a compatible cactus flash. And one radio-triggered flash can be used to trigger another flash in light triggering mode. Too easy. I've shown the scene below before - a 30-45 minute promo for a supper play and the actors had such fun that they carried my stuff back to the car for me

When i told the director that i wanted to do the promo outside in a baseball field, she said "are you sure, its going to be dark by the time one actor gets off work". Answer: yes - i have a flash . Cheap ass flash but the light is the same from a $50 flash versus an $800 nikon flash.

You can't get shadows like this with an onboard flash.

K3 with DA 17-70 - manual cactus trigger, Yongnuo 560 II flash - single, F5.6, 1000iso, 1/60s,




Last edited by philbaum; 04-25-2015 at 07:21 AM.
04-25-2015, 09:28 AM - 1 Like   #104
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
Roger that. Don't know what they are today, but the k10/K20 used to be limited to 10 ft. while even cheap radio triggers can go 100 ft or more.

You can't get shadows like this with an onboard flash.
Not so. The problem with most of the deniers is that they haven't extensively tried the various options. In fact, if you use the on-board flash you can soften the effect of overly harsh shadows to the extent desired. The K-3 on-board flash serves as controller/master in a ratio from 1/128 to full. The impact of 1/128 on a 12m flash - even at the unfortunately high ISO Phil had to use here - is negligible. Also, if you use a quality optical trigger setup - such as Wein HS - you will get 99+% consistency anywhere within sight of the camera (flash); that has been my experience. The result is that your subjects pose more naturally because they are accustomed to seeing modest-looking rigs.

Of course, if there are others taking pictures you have to avoid that optical set up (or keep the Wein cusped if holding the external until the moment you're taking a shot). A PC sync cord to radio trigger or direct connection is the solution. Its a good back up either way. I used to do a lot of stadium-based photography in twilight in a previous job, so I'm aware that it is pretty simple stuff. Ambient CFL lighting in a dim bowling alley - as in this shoot this week - is at least as challenging. Take a look at the natural expressions of the various subjects. Many of them would blink in a past shoot - due to pre-flash TTL. This set up worked flawlessly:

Bowling Banquet 2015 - James Robins - Powered by Phanfare
04-25-2015, 09:36 AM - 1 Like   #105
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I just can't wait to see the results of the poll next week, so we can have this discussion all over again.
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