[mikeSF]

those sample images are impressive

[JimC1101]

Oh please... really? You can't figure out how to carry a flash in your camera bag and you think there's something other people haven't figured out?

Listen, the whole use of a DSLR is the ability to use accessories. If you can't manage one accessory, be it an extra lens or a flash, you should be shooting Point and Shoot or Bridge camera. Not speculating on what other people do and on't know based on their preference for external flash. I'm not going to insult everyone by making up fake scenarios where someone's camera runs out of battery because of over use of the internal flash, or the stupidity of turning your back on bounce flash, because of over reliance on the internal flash. I'll leave those points for someone else to make.

How's that for making a point and pretending you didn't?

I'm not at all argumentative, just thinking out loud.

If I'm going to take a flash shot in a bar for my mates, it's probably going to be shot with the Optio W90 that's in my top pocket. I'm not even going to get into the hassles of looking after a DSLR in public places.

Hey check this out....

opened in the default image editor "Preview" on a mac, and click the GPS window in the "Inspector and you can see where it was taken. Also , it's a pixel peeper taken with pixel shift,

I am just reading this but did you say you don't take a DSLR into public places ? And you said to use a P&S or bridge because a DSLR should not be used in those situations ?


I do understand your opinion but we are all of different opinions and each are just as valid. If I am at a party with friends and want to shoot, I am not going to say, wait I will have to take my W90 because the onboard flash with my DSLR sucks. There are many shots with onboard that look surprisingly good if adjusted properly and much much better than a W90. In my opinion....and it is just my opinion....I don't want to take additional accessories and I want to add a prime, say my DA35 and just hang out with my friends in a pub or party and I can take good pics with onboard.


That is my opinion and my opinion is valid. Your opinion is valid too and you don't want to shoot the same way I do, and that is fine, but just because we shoot a different way means we are wrong, or that we should add additional accessories because that is what you think we should do because that is what DSLR's are suppose to be.


I apologize if I seem off base here but the questions over the last couple days about the onboard flash issue has become such a big powder keg. I wish we could all understand that we are all different how and when we shoot, just as we will compose a shot differently and/or choose the same settings. I would hope that we do understand that we are all different when it comes to our passion....photography....and not get it into a civil war over this.

---------- Post added 04-24-15 at 09:04 AM ----------

those sample images are impressive

Yes, the pics in the article in PF look really great when you look at the split with or without pixel shift.


I think it will be a big hit but only in static shots. I just wonder how they will look for landscape with a slight breeze. The studio pics do look good and will definitely look great for architecture...and possibly studio if the person is completely stationary.

[normhead]

I am just reading this but did you say you don't take a DSLR into public places ? And you said to use a P&S or bridge because a DSLR should not be used in those situations ?


I do understand your opinion but we are all of different opinions and each are just as valid. If I am at a party with friends and want to shoot, I am not going to say, wait I will have to take my W90 because the onboard flash with my DSLR sucks. There are many shots with onboard that look surprisingly good if adjusted properly and much much better than a W90. In my opinion....and it is just my opinion....I don't want to take additional accessories and I want to add a prime, say my DA35 and just hang out with my friends in a pub or party and I can take good pics with onboard.


That is my opinion and my opinion is valid. Your opinion is valid too and you don't want to shoot the same way I do, and that is fine, but just because we shoot a different way means we are wrong, or that we should add additional accessories because that is what you think we should do because that is what DSLR's are suppose to be.


I apologize if I seem off base here but the questions over the last couple days about the onboard flash issue has become such a big powder keg. I wish we could all understand that we are all different how and when we shoot, just as we will compose a shot differently and/or choose the same settings. I would hope that we do understand that we are all different when it comes to our passion....photography....and not get it into a civil war over this.

Ya, I was just P.O ed because you said I din't know how to use flash, because i didn't use the built in flash very much. And no I didn't say

you don't take a DSLR into public places ? And you said to use a P&S or bridge because a DSLR should not be used in those situations ?

I said it's a pain in the derriere to have a DSLR in a public place, like a pub. It's big it's bulky you have to worry about it being stolen, just washing your hands, you have to put it somewhere. I said a bridge camera or P&S is a better choice. But if you have some compelling reason to use your DSLR in public places where you're mostly doing something else, knock yourself out.

If you can't describe why you like built in flash without telling the rest of the world they don't know how to use their cameras, because they don't use the built in flash.....you should be prepared to have someone suggest you don't know how to use yours I would think. After all, turn about is fair play.

[JimC1101]

Ya, I was just P.O ed because you said I din't know how to use flash, because i didn't use the built in flash very much. And no I didn't say


I said it's a pain in the derriere to have a DSLR in a public place, like a pub. It's big it's bulky you have to worry about it being stolen, just washing your hands, you have to put it somewhere. I said a bridge camera or P&S is a better choice. But if you have some compelling reason to use your DSLR in public places where you're mostly doing something else, knock yourself out.

If you can't describe why you like built in flash without telling the rest of the world they don't know how to use their cameras, because they don't use the built in flash.....you should be prepared to have someone suggest you don't know how to use yours I would think. After all, turn about is fair play.

Ok. understood. It was not meant for you specifically and I know this topic is so hot, I try to keep my comments now but sometimes when someone will say that they don't like on board because it looks like a DMV pic, I just don't understand how because the decreased power is not like a DMV pic, not harsh at all. But as always, it is just my opinion.


I would not say it is my preference to use on board, but in a pinch it is fine. Yeah I use my DSLR a lot, my K-30 is small and the DA35 is light enough that there is no bulk. If I wash my hands, it is on my neck strap. In those instances when I am out with my friends, yes, I use on board. If I am shooting studio portraits, no on board, external all the way.


I will shut up now and sorry if I came across the wrong way I wonder if Pentax knows that this is such a hot topic....or do they really care. FF will be the same once the specs are finally released.

[normhead]

OK heres another issue. It looks to me like one of the failings of the external GPS unit is that it would prevent the built in flash from popping up, and it attaches to the hot shoe. meaning you have the choice between flash or GPS. Using external flash and internal GPS means you can use both... meaning possibly more functionality. Someone with he external GPS unit tell me if I'm wrong.

[philbaum]

I got into the habit of not using onboard flashes because all they offered was like 3 stages of manual power. When the K3 came along with its optional finely divided manual power levels, i thought yeah - those are going to be handy.

But you know what - i've never used the pop up manual flash on the K3, even though i've done several hundred off camera flash shots.

I shouldn't care about this debate, if it is one, because i have no intention of buying another K3 model when my existing one is doing so well.

But i'm just pointing out, one can make a rational point that pop-up flash is space in the camera body that can better be used for something else. Cheers for Pentax/Ricoh for thinking this through.

I do know a professional photographer, who carries a very small "off-camera" flash with him on hikes. And uses it to great advantage. I actually think more of Ricoh for making this design step instead of reiterating the same old design.

As to the idea that someone has to spend tons of money to do off-camera flash, that is simply nonsense. I get high quality portrait and promo results using $50-75 Yongnuo manual flashes, and cheap Cactus radio triggers, and a 20"x20" softbox that was like $60 or some such. I don't work out of a studio but mostly inside a theatre, in stores, in parks and out on a baseball field in the evening, a few months back. Equipment has to be portable and yet be able to be used in an artistic manner. Popup flashes don't cut it for me anymore. If i'm in a pub, i'm more likely to use a smart phone unless its for something i care about.

[ScooterMaxi Jim]

From most of the posts here, it seems that the onboard is shot full power and used as is. With that, I can understand no one else likes to use it. There are many other options available to lower the power and as you said, use a pop up flash diffuser. In those instances the pop up works well. Again, my first choice would be external but the onboard is, or was there, so it can be used creatively without adding an external..

That would be true if it was the only concern. Most of the time, I'm using that on-board as a controller with a minimum of fill needed from it. So, the bigger problem (literally) is that now you are stuck with setting up and shooting two large flashes - both of which require decent diffusers to get the professional look I require. I might as well go to Nikon with its bulk if I have to lug around that much extra weight, not to mention all the batteries.

Here's another thing no one has mentioned. Take a look at all the open, unused space existing below the lip where "Pentax" is displayed. Exactly how much of that vacancy would need to be used to accommodate GPS (and wi-fi for that matter) - not much, frankly. This whole "either or" conversation is a diversionary marketing argument, not based on technological reality.

[monochrome]

Here's my conclusion after considering pixel shift and rumors that the FF also omits an OBF:

This camera is somewhat more specialized than the K-3.

Consider: what types of shooting will actually benefit from the pixel shift technology?

• Macro

  Ring Flash or Studio Light

• Architecture

  No Flash, generally

• Product

  Studio Light or Ring Flash

• Some Landscape

  No Flash

• Nature / Birding

  Shoe Mount or No Flash, depending on subject

Consider: what types of shooting will actually benefit from the internal GPS?

• Macro

  Probably not, unless it is field Macro

• Architecture

  Definitely

• Product

  Probably not

• Some Landscape

  Definitely

• Nature / Birding

  Most Likely

All that has happened is the K-3 II is less a generalist flagship dSLR than was the K-3. Given the addition of Pixel Shift Technology, it seems to make sense Ricoh would alter the in-built features to suit the most likely users / targeted user group for that technology. More generalist users and users who have different narrow uses will simply need to use an external flash - rather than users of GPS needing to use an external GPS location device.

One might disagree with Ricoh's market tactics for this camera body but that's all it is - market tactics.

[derekkite]

Here's my conclusion after considering pixel shift and rumors that the FF also omits an OBF:

This camera is somewhat more specialized than the K-3.

Consider: what types of shooting will actually benefit from the pixel shift technology?

• Macro

  Ring Flash or Studio Light

• Architecture

  No Flash, generally

• Product

  Studio Light or Ring Flash

• Some Landscape

  No Flash

• Nature / Birding

  Shoe Mount or No Flash, depending on subject

Consider: what types of shooting will actually benefit from the internal GPS?

• Macro

  Probably not, unless it is field Macro

• Architecture

  Definitely

• Product

  Probably not

• Some Landscape

  Definitely

• Nature / Birding

  Most Likely

All that has happened is the K-3 II is less a generalist flagship dSLR than was the K-3. Given the addition of Pixel Shift Technology, it seems to make sense Ricoh would alter the in-built features to suit the most likely users / targeted user group for that technology. More generalist users and users who have different narrow uses will simply need to use an external flash - rather than users of GPS needing to use an external GPS location device.

One might disagree with Ricoh's market tactics for this camera body but that's all it is - market tactics.

I agree with you. The gps coordinates in exif will become expected. The first thought when I look at my shots was to remember where I took it.

Remote flash triggering is an issue, and I would expect Ricoh to come out with a solution. An inexpensive IR emitter that fits on the hot shoe replicating the trigger functionality of the built in flash would be very useful.

[monochrome]

An inexpensive IR emitter that fits on the hot shoe replicating the trigger functionality of the built in flash would be very useful.

We should PM Adam, asahi man and/or Kenspo.

[Rondec]

In the end, people will choose the tool that works best for them. If the downside of no pop flash is too great, then people will choose to get a different camera. End of story. I have had significantly better results with bumping iso or, using an external flash, but maybe I just don't understand the proper techniques for using it.

As far using the flash for remote triggering, it is OK, but it isn't terribly reliable and my wife prefers to use radio triggers (I don't use off camera lights, it's kind of beyond me). Radio triggers aren't exactly expensive at this point.

The weird thing to me is if you are going to go through the process of carrying lights/off camera flash with you, why would you quibble at the idea of carrying a radio trigger too?

[stevebrot]

I think this camera is no longer aimed for the general enthusiasts, but for those discerning and "knows what to do" photographers. (And have the ability to purchase external flash. aka pros and those that have a fat wallet)

Your statement reminds me of the pre-announcement ad blitz for the Nikon Df...another flashless enthusiast camera.


Steve

[stevebrot]

I do know a professional photographer, who carries a very small "off-camera" flash with him on hikes. And uses it to great advantage. I actually think more of Ricoh for making this design step instead of reiterating the same old design.

Using a PC cord, I assume?


Steve

[ScooterMaxi Jim]

Radio triggers aren't exactly expensive at this point. The weird thing to me is if you are going to go through the process of carrying lights/off camera flash with you, why would you quibble at the idea of carrying a radio trigger too?

It's mostly a matter of how much complication are you willing to tolerate? Radio triggers are two devices, both requiring switches, connections, batteries - all of which should be tested for every shoot, and duplicated in case of possible failure (the professional's creed). That's a lot of extra effort and opportunity for failure. I use radio triggers on occasion, but must admit it reminds of going to the dentist; it isn't fun and nothing particularly good can come of it.

[stevebrot]

We should PM Adam, asahi man and/or Kenspo.

No...we should file a patent...


Steve