Flash or No Flash

Not a Number · 04-29-2015, 03:54 PM - **2 Likes**

Originally posted by Rupert

I won't buy a car without turn signals, even though I have two arms

Turn signals on cars in the US are required by State and Federal laws/regulations. Even if you could buy a car without turn signals you could not get it registered or operate it legally on the streets.

Originally posted by Parallax

That's why when I bought a new computer last year I demanded that they install a floppy drive.

Did you make sure it had a serial port for your dial-up modem and a parallel port for your dot matrix printer too?

Newsflash: with the O-GPS1 installed you can't use the popup flash in the first place. So the lack of a build in flash is no great loss to the people who would buy this for the GPS or auto-tracer.

**RobA_Oz** · 04-29-2015, 03:57 PM - **1 Like**

This has the possibility of starting to turn into another "crippled" K-mount long form discussion. The only acceptable solutions to the problem for those who want an on-board flash are pretty plain: Ricoh has a change of heart (see the foregoing); buy another Pentax APS-C body; use a (possibly) sub-optimal hot-shoe flash (the AF201FG doesn't seem to have a centre-line much different to the OBF, but perhaps someone can provide a more accurate assessment); or change systems.

I'm not trying to shut the discussion down. I recognise that everyone needs to vent about things that force change to the way they work, but I can't imagine Ricoh didn't do their homework on this and make a hard call on it.

Parallax · 04-29-2015, 04:22 PM

Originally posted by Not a Number

Did you make sure it had a serial port for your dial-up modem......

Absolutely! I couldn't live without Compuserve.

**Rondec** · 04-29-2015, 06:09 PM

Originally posted by ScooterMaxi Jim

Still waiting for the solution from the wannabe "pros" to those of us who travel light for assignments that demand it (using no more than one external flash), and understand the benefits of modest fill light coming from as close to the optical axis as is possible. It isn't as though pro-oriented cameras costing more than the K-3 - including FF models above entry level - don't include on-board flash. While some good arguments have been offered in favor of integrated GPS and astro-tracing, apparently the response to valid points regarding on-board flash needs is unnecessary - other than appearances or personal shooting habits. Nothing about the on-board flash capability makes it a good analogy to the floppy disc. In fact, Pentax made the on-board flash far more relevant in the expanded capabilities on the K-3, then promptly dropped it in the B version.

The answer is clear. If you need a camera with a pop up flash then you get one. There are still a bunch of cameras out there K3, K-S2, K50, etc that have a pop up flash and Pentax has given no indication that they are planning to do away with the flash on all models except for the Q, so not certain if there is a reason to get so upset.

I can tell you that you can travel pretty light with a set of radio triggers in addition to your external flash and if you have a bag that will hold a K3, a lens or two and an external flash, it will surely hold a Cactus trigger and receiver.

On the other hand, I don't understand what the K3 II has to offer over the K3 for those who have no use for the GPS/astro tracer unit. As far as we can tell, it has the same sensor, same frame rate and same specs otherwise. The pixel shift feature doesn't seem particularly useful for either pros on assignment or wannabe pros as you so adroitly call them.

Dave L · 04-29-2015, 07:03 PM

Originally posted by Rupert

I don't know? Your turn....... How many Pro's do you see shooting Pentax? You really think no flash will draw them?

I won't buy a car without turn signals, even though I have two arms. Without air bags, even though I have seat belts.

...and I would never have this shot and many, many, more without OBF. You only have seconds to get many shots and if you have to mount a flash, those seconds are lost forever. Nope...I don't like any flash other than studio strobes, but I don't like seat belts either and I wouldn't drive without them.

What are the odds I'd get a second chance at this after I went back and got a flash to mount...or even if I had one handy in my bag? How many shots will you miss?

... by Rupert2009, on Flickr

Regards!

Your point is a good one but I think of it this way. We miss many opportunistic or candid-type shots like that each day simply by having DSLRs. By the time we drag them out of our bag, turn them on, check settings, focus and sometimes find the right lens, the shot has gone. Now with a smartphone in top pocket or hand, the chances are that you will get the shot - albeit of lesser quality but getting any shot beats getting no shot.

I use my OBF for the kind of shot you posted, it's very handy, but then I remembered that my best shots are when I've been out and about waiting for the shot. A bee getting honey for example... I spent a while in the garden getting my shot below, using the OBF. But I could have just as easily used a little external flash.

So yes, we will miss an occasional shot but in the grand scheme of things I don't think it will add much to the already far-too-many lost shots we have to accept as an inevitable part of owning a bulky-ish DSLR. So no OBF and a little plugin one in my pocket works for me, I think so anyway. If they can shoehorn one into the next release though, without losing the GPS etc., so much the better.

Rupert · 04-29-2015, 08:20 PM

I really need to get out of this conversation. The odds of me buying a FF of any make are slim to none. For at least 90% of all the shooters I know FF is a detriment to their goals and a costly one, at that.
Go look at the K3 and K5 Photo threads and if you are wanting better shots that what you can see there, you are most likely dreaming. Sure, there is a place and need for FF...with maybe 10% of the shooters I see here regularly. The rest are wasting their money and their dreams on cameras that won't make them any better than what is already available.

Anyhow, that's how I see it....but if that "slim" chance developed that I would buy a FF, it would damn sure have an OBF.

I'm happy with what I've got...and thankful I have it.

Otis just reminded me....."You'd better watch your language mister!"

Regards!

**RobA_Oz** · 04-29-2015, 09:44 PM

Originally posted by Rupert

Otis just reminded me....."You'd better watch your language mister!"

Regards!

Nice shot, Rupert! 36MP could possibly tease out a little more detail in Otis's fur, provided you stopped your 35FF down far enough so the DoF would cover it.

I notice your EXIF says you didn't use fill flash on that one...

---------- Post added 30th Apr 2015 at 02:47 PM ----------

In retrospect, I wonder if the poll should have had another option: "I would consider buying the K-3 II if it had a small flash bundled with it for about US$100 extra."

stevebrot · 04-29-2015, 10:45 PM

Originally posted by RobA_Oz

In retrospect, I wonder if the poll should have had another option: "I would consider buying the K-3 II if it had a small flash bundled with it for about US$100 extra."

I would lay odds that there will be an AF 201FG bundle.

Steve

Not a Number · 04-29-2015, 11:18 PM

Originally posted by stevebrot

I would lay odds that there will be an AF 201FG bundle.

Or a rebate coupon. Bundle is more likely.

Poll results are in.

cxdoo · 04-30-2015, 02:55 AM

Originally posted by Rondec

On the other hand, I don't understand what the K3 II has to offer over the K3 for those who have no use for the GPS/astro tracer unit.

I can think of several reasons why this release would be beneficial to RP in the wake of FF launch (continuous presence in media, wide scale testing of upcoming tech, catering to a niche, demonstrating APS-C is not sidetracked, demonstrating they are capable of working on multiple cameras, ...)

If it works for some of the customer base even better.

jawsy · 04-30-2015, 02:57 AM

You'll have to excuse me if this has been expressed earlier in the thread.

I've been sitting tight waiting for the K-3ii to step up from the K20D. The absence of flash was initially a bit discouraging but then thinking about it, I've become accustomed to working with SR and natural light on anything other than happy snaps (I take a lot of low light photos.) ISO and 4.5 stop SR performance will almost completely do away with any inclination I have to pop a flash and if I did have such a need, I've got the option of using the hot-shoe or using an i-phone.

I've concluded that it's a natural technological progression in much the same way new laptops no longer have DVD/Blu-ray slots. I think Ricoh's made a bold decision and got it right.

D1N0 · 04-30-2015, 03:02 AM - **1 Like**

Poll seems to reflect the discussion over here when you discount the fact you can only vote once

Parallax · 04-30-2015, 04:56 AM

Originally posted by D1N0

Poll seems to reflect the discussion over here when you discount the fact you can only vote once

Yep, and if the poll reflects the public at large, maybe Pentax really does know what they're doing.
Pentax is NOT Doomed.

Dave L · 04-30-2015, 05:08 AM

Someone mentioned i-phones, well my daughters and grandkids all have them and take photos regularly but I can't recall them ever using the onboard flash! If they ever graduate to a DSLR would they? I doubt it, so perhaps Ricoh are just ahead of the curve on this!

D1N0 · 04-30-2015, 05:24 AM

Originally posted by Dave L

Someone mentioned i-phones, well my daughters and grandkids all have them and take photos regularly but I can't recall them ever using the onboard flash! If they ever graduate to a DSLR would they? I doubt it, so perhaps Ricoh are just ahead of the curve on this!

That's not for taking pics but for waving around at pop/rock venue's.

View Poll Results: How important is the on-board flash?
I would consider buying the K-3 II regardless of whether or not it has a flash	163	65.20%
I may buy the K-3 II, but the lack of a flash is discouraging	59	23.60%
I would not buy the K-3 II because it lacks a flash	28	11.20%
Voters: 250. You may not vote on this poll

04-29-2015, 07:03 PM	#140
Dave L Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Hampshire UK Posts: 306	Originally posted by Rupert I don't know? Your turn....... How many Pro's do you see shooting Pentax? You really think no flash will draw them? I won't buy a car without turn signals, even though I have two arms. Without air bags, even though I have seat belts. ...and I would never have this shot and many, many, more without OBF. You only have seconds to get many shots and if you have to mount a flash, those seconds are lost forever. Nope...I don't like any flash other than studio strobes, but I don't like seat belts either and I wouldn't drive without them. What are the odds I'd get a second chance at this after I went back and got a flash to mount...or even if I had one handy in my bag? How many shots will you miss? ... by Rupert2009, on Flickr Regards! Your point is a good one but I think of it this way. We miss many opportunistic or candid-type shots like that each day simply by having DSLRs. By the time we drag them out of our bag, turn them on, check settings, focus and sometimes find the right lens, the shot has gone. Now with a smartphone in top pocket or hand, the chances are that you will get the shot - albeit of lesser quality but getting any shot beats getting no shot. I use my OBF for the kind of shot you posted, it's very handy, but then I remembered that my best shots are when I've been out and about waiting for the shot. A bee getting honey for example... I spent a while in the garden getting my shot below, using the OBF. But I could have just as easily used a little external flash. So yes, we will miss an occasional shot but in the grand scheme of things I don't think it will add much to the already far-too-many lost shots we have to accept as an inevitable part of owning a bulky-ish DSLR. So no OBF and a little plugin one in my pocket works for me, I think so anyway. If they can shoehorn one into the next release though, without losing the GPS etc., so much the better. Last edited by Dave L; 04-29-2015 at 07:27 PM.

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04-29-2015, 03:54 PM - 2 Likes	#136
Not a Number Moderator Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Venice, CA Posts: 10,526	Originally posted by Rupert I won't buy a car without turn signals, even though I have two arms Turn signals on cars in the US are required by State and Federal laws/regulations. Even if you could buy a car without turn signals you could not get it registered or operate it legally on the streets. Originally posted by Parallax That's why when I bought a new computer last year I demanded that they install a floppy drive. Did you make sure it had a serial port for your dial-up modem and a parallel port for your dot matrix printer too? Newsflash: with the O-GPS1 installed you can't use the popup flash in the first place. So the lack of a build in flash is no great loss to the people who would buy this for the GPS or auto-tracer.

04-29-2015, 03:57 PM - 1 Like	#137
RobA_Oz Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Tasmania, Australia Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,200	This has the possibility of starting to turn into another "crippled" K-mount long form discussion. The only acceptable solutions to the problem for those who want an on-board flash are pretty plain: Ricoh has a change of heart (see the foregoing); buy another Pentax APS-C body; use a (possibly) sub-optimal hot-shoe flash (the AF201FG doesn't seem to have a centre-line much different to the OBF, but perhaps someone can provide a more accurate assessment); or change systems. I'm not trying to shut the discussion down. I recognise that everyone needs to vent about things that force change to the way they work, but I can't imagine Ricoh didn't do their homework on this and make a hard call on it.

04-29-2015, 04:22 PM	#138
Parallax Senior Moderator Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: South Dakota Photos: Gallery Posts: 19,332	Originally posted by Not a Number Did you make sure it had a serial port for your dial-up modem...... Absolutely! I couldn't live without Compuserve.

04-29-2015, 06:09 PM	#139
Rondec Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Gladys, Virginia Photos: Gallery Posts: 27,662	Originally posted by ScooterMaxi Jim Still waiting for the solution from the wannabe "pros" to those of us who travel light for assignments that demand it (using no more than one external flash), and understand the benefits of modest fill light coming from as close to the optical axis as is possible. It isn't as though pro-oriented cameras costing more than the K-3 - including FF models above entry level - don't include on-board flash. While some good arguments have been offered in favor of integrated GPS and astro-tracing, apparently the response to valid points regarding on-board flash needs is unnecessary - other than appearances or personal shooting habits. Nothing about the on-board flash capability makes it a good analogy to the floppy disc. In fact, Pentax made the on-board flash far more relevant in the expanded capabilities on the K-3, then promptly dropped it in the B version. The answer is clear. If you need a camera with a pop up flash then you get one. There are still a bunch of cameras out there K3, K-S2, K50, etc that have a pop up flash and Pentax has given no indication that they are planning to do away with the flash on all models except for the Q, so not certain if there is a reason to get so upset. I can tell you that you can travel pretty light with a set of radio triggers in addition to your external flash and if you have a bag that will hold a K3, a lens or two and an external flash, it will surely hold a Cactus trigger and receiver. On the other hand, I don't understand what the K3 II has to offer over the K3 for those who have no use for the GPS/astro tracer unit. As far as we can tell, it has the same sensor, same frame rate and same specs otherwise. The pixel shift feature doesn't seem particularly useful for either pros on assignment or wannabe pros as you so adroitly call them.

04-29-2015, 08:20 PM	#141
Rupert Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Texas Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 25,123	I really need to get out of this conversation. The odds of me buying a FF of any make are slim to none. For at least 90% of all the shooters I know FF is a detriment to their goals and a costly one, at that. Go look at the K3 and K5 Photo threads and if you are wanting better shots that what you can see there, you are most likely dreaming. Sure, there is a place and need for FF...with maybe 10% of the shooters I see here regularly. The rest are wasting their money and their dreams on cameras that won't make them any better than what is already available. Anyhow, that's how I see it....but if that "slim" chance developed that I would buy a FF, it would damn sure have an OBF. I'm happy with what I've got...and thankful I have it. Otis just reminded me....."You'd better watch your language mister!" Regards!

04-29-2015, 09:44 PM	#142
RobA_Oz Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Tasmania, Australia Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,200	Originally posted by Rupert Otis just reminded me....."You'd better watch your language mister!" Regards! Nice shot, Rupert! 36MP could possibly tease out a little more detail in Otis's fur, provided you stopped your 35FF down far enough so the DoF would cover it. I notice your EXIF says you didn't use fill flash on that one... ---------- Post added 30th Apr 2015 at 02:47 PM ---------- In retrospect, I wonder if the poll should have had another option: "I would consider buying the K-3 II if it had a small flash bundled with it for about US$100 extra."

04-29-2015, 10:45 PM	#143
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by RobA_Oz In retrospect, I wonder if the poll should have had another option: "I would consider buying the K-3 II if it had a small flash bundled with it for about US$100 extra." I would lay odds that there will be an AF 201FG bundle. Steve

04-29-2015, 11:18 PM	#144
Not a Number Moderator Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Venice, CA Posts: 10,526	Originally posted by stevebrot I would lay odds that there will be an AF 201FG bundle. Or a rebate coupon. Bundle is more likely. Poll results are in.

04-30-2015, 02:55 AM	#145
cxdoo Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Limassol, Cyprus Posts: 1,150	Originally posted by Rondec On the other hand, I don't understand what the K3 II has to offer over the K3 for those who have no use for the GPS/astro tracer unit. I can think of several reasons why this release would be beneficial to RP in the wake of FF launch (continuous presence in media, wide scale testing of upcoming tech, catering to a niche, demonstrating APS-C is not sidetracked, demonstrating they are capable of working on multiple cameras, ...) If it works for some of the customer base even better.

04-30-2015, 02:57 AM	#146
jawsy Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Australia Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 422	You'll have to excuse me if this has been expressed earlier in the thread. I've been sitting tight waiting for the K-3ii to step up from the K20D. The absence of flash was initially a bit discouraging but then thinking about it, I've become accustomed to working with SR and natural light on anything other than happy snaps (I take a lot of low light photos.) ISO and 4.5 stop SR performance will almost completely do away with any inclination I have to pop a flash and if I did have such a need, I've got the option of using the hot-shoe or using an i-phone. I've concluded that it's a natural technological progression in much the same way new laptops no longer have DVD/Blu-ray slots. I think Ricoh's made a bold decision and got it right.

04-30-2015, 03:02 AM - 1 Like	#147
D1N0 Pentaxian Join Date: May 2012 Location: --- Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,802	Poll seems to reflect the discussion over here when you discount the fact you can only vote once

04-30-2015, 04:56 AM	#148
Parallax Senior Moderator Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: South Dakota Photos: Gallery Posts: 19,332	Originally posted by D1N0 Poll seems to reflect the discussion over here when you discount the fact you can only vote once Yep, and if the poll reflects the public at large, maybe Pentax really does know what they're doing. Pentax is NOT Doomed.

04-30-2015, 05:08 AM	#149
Dave L Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Hampshire UK Posts: 306	Someone mentioned i-phones, well my daughters and grandkids all have them and take photos regularly but I can't recall them ever using the onboard flash! If they ever graduate to a DSLR would they? I doubt it, so perhaps Ricoh are just ahead of the curve on this!

04-30-2015, 05:24 AM	#150
D1N0 Pentaxian Join Date: May 2012 Location: --- Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,802	Originally posted by Dave L Someone mentioned i-phones, well my daughters and grandkids all have them and take photos regularly but I can't recall them ever using the onboard flash! If they ever graduate to a DSLR would they? I doubt it, so perhaps Ricoh are just ahead of the curve on this! That's not for taking pics but for waving around at pop/rock venue's.