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05-27-2015, 11:21 PM   #106
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QuoteOriginally posted by eraser Quote
So, opening a DNG in DCU I can save the file as JPG, TIFF (8bit), or TIFF (16bit).
Could you please upload the 16 bit tiff conversion from a single DNG file (matching an already uploaded PS jpeg)?


Last edited by tomtor; 05-27-2015 at 11:33 PM.
05-27-2015, 11:21 PM   #107
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To be specific, when converting to TIFF in camera, does it convert a pixel shifted photo to TIFF and the result is the real PS deal?
05-27-2015, 11:28 PM   #108
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QuoteOriginally posted by eraser Quote
So this does work in camera, you can convert a single file, select multiple files, or a whole folder to TIFF then save wherever you choose. Yields a ~70MB TIFF.
That IS a very nice feature!

Would not mind that in Raw+ mode instead of/in addition to the jpeg satellite file.
05-27-2015, 11:41 PM   #109
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QuoteOriginally posted by Quicksand Quote
There are some advantages to including four separate uncombined images in a single raw file, in particular enabling the raw processing software tool (or its user) to decide how to handle artifacts. If the four images are combined in-camera that opportunity is lost.
It would be possible to put all the images without modification in a DNG, by storing each of the 4 values at each pixel location.
The information content would be the identical, but the arrangement within the file would be different (and valid).

And there is software that could handle that.

05-27-2015, 11:56 PM   #110
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Even the big PS DNG files are just four standard DNG files joined into one. No cleverness here at all.

Code:
Offset      0  1  2  3  4  5  6  7   8  9  A  B  C  D  E  F

00000220 00 00 01 00 00 00 2C 01 00 00 01 00 00 00 50 45 , PE
00000230 4E 54 41 58 20 4B 2D 33 20 49 49 20 56 65 72 2E NTAX K-3 II Ver.
00000240 20 31 2E 30 30 00 32 30 31 35 3A 30 35 3A 32 37 1.00 2015:05:27
00000250 20 30 35 3A 32 30 3A 33 36 00 41 6C 65 78 5F 4D 05:20:36 Alex_M

Offset 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 A B C D E F

022FE040 2C 01 00 00 01 00 00 00 50 45 4E 54 41 58 20 4B , PENTAX K
022FE050 2D 33 20 49 49 20 56 65 72 2E 20 31 2E 30 30 00 -3 II Ver. 1.00
022FE060 32 30 31 35 3A 30 35 3A 32 37 20 30 35 3A 32 30 2015:05:27 05:20
022FE070 3A 33 36 00 41 6C 65 78 5F 4D 63 4D 69 6C 6C 61 :36 Alex_McMilla

Offset 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 A B C D E F

0432D250 00 50 45 4E 54 41 58 20 4B 2D 33 20 49 49 20 56 PENTAX K-3 II V
0432D260 65 72 2E 20 31 2E 30 30 00 32 30 31 35 3A 30 35 er. 1.00 2015:05
0432D270 3A 32 37 20 30 35 3A 32 30 3A 33 37 00 41 6C 65 :27 05:20:37 Ale
0432D280 78 5F 4D 63 4D 69 6C 6C 61 6E 00 FF FF FF FF FF x_McMillan ˙˙˙˙˙

Offset 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 A B C D E F

06357FD0 00 00 50 45 4E 54 41 58 20 4B 2D 33 20 49 49 20 PENTAX K-3 II
06357FE0 56 65 72 2E 20 31 2E 30 30 00 32 30 31 35 3A 30 Ver. 1.00 2015:0
06357FF0 35 3A 32 37 20 30 35 3A 32 30 3A 33 37 00 41 6C 5:27 05:20:37 Al
06358000 65 78 5F 4D 63 4D 69 6C 6C 61 6E 00 FF FF FF FF ex_McMillan ˙˙˙˙
05-28-2015, 12:17 AM   #111
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
Those were my thoughts as well. Barry Peterson is sort of the forum expert on DNG, especially as it pertains to Pentax, but Adobe has a long history of funky support of of their own specification in regards to tools. Has anyone attempted a read of the DNG internal file structure using something other than Adobe's validator tool to confirm the ill-advised IFD chaining?*

I, for one, am a little very disappointed that Ricoh/Pentax has opted to merge the pixel shift as a post-process function rather than do this at capture time with the result being a normal Pentax DNG/PEF. The in-camera HDR was and is a kludge and it appears that Ricoh has taken the same short-cut with the Pixel Shift technology. The one redeeming factor might be if in-camera conversion to TIFF is available. The K-3II manual seems to indicate that it may be.

* I am have only a passing understanding of the DNG spec, but it is my understanding that any "stacked" image data should be represented by a tree structure as opposed to "chaining". It is possible that Adobe's tool has failed on a corner case.
( Barry Pearson! No problem. )

Yes to the last point. The DNG specification says Page 13):

"DNG recommends the use of SubIFD trees, as described in the TIFF-EP specification. SubIFD chains are not supported.
The highest-resolution and quality IFD should use NewSubFileType equal to 0. Reduced resolution (or quality) thumbnails or previews, if any, should use NewSubFileType equal to 1 (for a primary preview) or 10001.H (for an alternate preview)."

The failure message I got from the "dng-validate.exe" tool from the latest SDK said:

"Warning: This file has chained IFDs, which will be ignored by DNG Readers"

So unless I'm missing something, or the tool is lying, the DNG is not valid. But as you hint, there is the possibility that the tool is lying.
I'm floundering here. I had useful tools that I didn't copy to my new PC. I need inspiration! Or someone else to give the answer.

But also, even if it were valid, by using trees rather than chains, no current software would be able to handle it successfully!
This sort of format is typically intended to hold a related sequence of images, not data to be combined into a single image.

From the TIFF/EP specification (used as the basis for DNG):

"There may be more than one IFD in a TIFF 6.0 file. Each IFD defines a subfile.
One potential use of subfiles in TIFF 6.0 is to describe related images, such as the pages of a facsimile transmission.
A Baseline TIFF 6.0 reader is not required to read any IFDs beyond the first one."

This has all the signs of a hasty implementation of the DNG version.
I suspect they designed the PEF version first, to work with their own software, then thought "Whoops, now what if DNG is set; Ah ... just copy the same data across".
05-28-2015, 02:56 AM   #112
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How does the PEF version work with Ricoh software ?
05-28-2015, 04:32 AM   #113
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QuoteOriginally posted by lm4187 Quote
Nor does PaintShop Pro X7 or DxO OpticsPro 10.
I take this back. Converting the DNG (or PEF) to a 16-bit TIFF in PaintShop Pro X7 yields an obviously inferior image--only one of the CFA frames. Don't know about DxO OpticsPro, but they do not support the K-3 HDR RAW format.

QuoteOriginally posted by eraser Quote
So this does work in camera, you can convert a single file, select multiple files, or a whole folder to TIFF then save wherever you choose.
There is DNG to TIFF Raw Development in the K-3, but it only yields 8-bit data, so dynamic range is lost. The question is: Is this a limitation of the K-3 firmware or the Prime III processor?

Out of curiosity, I checked on how Olympus handles these issues. From their instruction manual for the E-M5 Mark II:

QuoteQuote:
When image quality is set to RAW+JPEG, the camera saves a single RAW image
(extension “.ORI”) before combining it into a High Res Shot. Pre-combination RAW
images can only be played back on the software that comes with this camera.
Cheers,
Lou

05-28-2015, 04:57 AM   #114
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As mentioned here, https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/32-digital-processing-software-printing/2...ml#post3266948 , Ricoh really is on the wrong track when they make extensions to the DNG file format. I wish they could use DNG floating point files for HDR and linear DNG for pixel shift, but I don't think they will ever change this.
05-28-2015, 06:43 AM   #115
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QuoteOriginally posted by tomtor Quote
Could you please upload the 16 bit tiff conversion from a single DNG file (matching an already uploaded PS jpeg)?
QuoteOriginally posted by Gimbal Quote
To be specific, when converting to TIFF in camera, does it convert a pixel shifted photo to TIFF and the result is the real PS deal?
Can't seem to upload to JohnBee's storage this morning for some reason but I did look at TIFF files.
So in camera conversion yields a ~70MB tiff which is an 8bit TIFF.
DCU (Version 5.4.0) conversion of a DNG to a TIFF yields a ~137MB tiff which is a 16bit TIFF.
05-28-2015, 08:47 AM   #116
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QuoteOriginally posted by Barry Pearson Quote
But also, even if it were valid, by using trees rather than chains, no current software would be able to handle it successfully!
This sort of format is typically intended to hold a related sequence of images, not data to be combined into a single image.
That is my understanding as well.


Steve
05-28-2015, 09:06 AM   #117
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QuoteOriginally posted by Barry Pearson Quote
"There may be more than one IFD in a TIFF 6.0 file. Each IFD defines a subfile.
One potential use of subfiles in TIFF 6.0 is to describe related images, such as the pages of a facsimile transmission.
A Baseline TIFF 6.0 reader is not required to read any IFDs beyond the first one."
I regularly use this feature of TIFF when scanning multi-page documents for eventual fax transmission. Microsoft's fax driver apparently is not a baseline reader! From the DNG specification it appears that there is a departure from the TIFF/EP model on this point, though I am not sure that the Ricoh/Pentax file is even a valid TIFF either! Edit: By changing the file extension of IMGP0108.DNG to .tif, I was able to open the file in Paintshop Pro X6, so it apparently is a valid TIFF. Only the base image is displayed (duh). When prepared as a fax, four sections are present, but none could be be rendered as a proper image by the Microsoft fax driver (a sequence of gray bars only).


Steve

(...more mud in the water...)
05-28-2015, 09:11 AM   #118
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QuoteOriginally posted by Barry Pearson Quote
( Barry Pearson! No problem. )
Corrected! (Sorry ) I was in a hurry!


Steve
05-28-2015, 09:22 AM   #119
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QuoteOriginally posted by lm4187 Quote
Nor does PaintShop Pro X7
Ditto for PSP X6, though the image rendering, at least for the DNG, is very poor with heavy artifact as compared to the Lightroom rendering. The PEF looks the same in PSP as the DNG, but (as noted above) cannot be parsed by Lightroom.


Steve

Last edited by stevebrot; 05-28-2015 at 09:31 AM.
05-28-2015, 09:48 AM   #120
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BTW...I have not tried this, but the current version of dcraw may be able to unpack the PS DNG files...

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/32-digital-processing-software-printing/2...-os-dcraw.html


Steve
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