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Gimbal · 05-27-2015, 01:51 AM

Ok, but is it the pixelshifted result you get, or only one of the four exposures? Search for artifacts from moving grass as can be seen in down right corner of picture 0091.jpg

tomtor · 05-27-2015, 02:03 AM

Originally posted by jbinpg

Yes, sir. Loads just like a regular DNG.

That's nice!

Are the demosaic options disabled in darktable?
I would expect that if the equivalent of a 24mpix 16bit rgb image is stored in the k3ii DNG.

I will have a look at the internals of the dng later this day when I am back from work.

---------- Post added 05-27-15 at 11:21 AM ----------

Originally posted by jbinpg

Alas, the PEF will not open in my raw developer of choice (darktable) - unknown format. I imagine it will be the same for other raw developers until an update to handle the new format is released.

Jack

I could work on a darktable PEF fix but I wonder if that is worth the effort because most people (myself included) use DNG.

Are there any users on this forum who would like to see support for this?

kh1234567890 · 05-27-2015, 03:13 AM

Faststone appears to load and render the PEF and DNG files without any problem. Claims they are 6080x4032 for the PEF and 6028x4024 24Mp 24 bit for the DNG.

Rawdigger also opens both and renders them to 4x the resolution of the individual channels as it sees them. In other words, libraw/dcraw is happy with the files.

tomtor · 05-27-2015, 04:17 AM

Originally posted by kh1234567890

Faststone appears to load and render the PEF and DNG files without any problem. Claims they are 6080x4032 for the PEF and 6028x4024 24Mp 24 bit for the DNG.

Rawdigger also opens both and renders them to 4x the resolution of the individual channels as it sees them. In other words, libraw/dcraw is happy with the files.

24 bit for the dng means 8 bit per channel, that cannot be right.

That would mean a 3 byte (rgb) x 24Mpixel is about 72 megabyte dng. The file is about two times bigger so we can assume that it really stores 14 or 16 bit for each channel.

Perhaps faststone uses the embedded jpeg preview.

The rawdigger results hints at the following approach. The data is encoded as from a hypothetical 96mpix (4 x 24mpix) bayer sensor. That makes sense.

Last edited by tomtor; 05-27-2015 at 04:29 AM.

Barry Pearson · 05-27-2015, 04:22 AM

Originally posted by Gimbal

Wait a minute, are you saying that you can develop the DNG-file in a non Pentax program?

Originally posted by Gimbal

Ok, but is it the pixelshifted result you get, or only one of the four exposures? Search for artifacts from moving grass as can be seen in down right corner of picture 0091.jpg

I've done some analysis of one of the DNGs at DPReview:

DPReview: Preliminary Analysis

DPReview: Re-Preliminary Analysis

I used Lightroom CC, the DNG Converter, and "dng-validate.exe" from the DNG SDK.
Bad news. Looks like a screw-up by Ricoh!

kh1234567890 · 05-27-2015, 04:59 AM

Originally posted by tomtor

Perhaps faststone uses the embedded jpeg preview.

And pressing 'A' in Faststone runs the dcraw based demosaic/render. The files also open in SilkyPix Pro 6 and RawTherapee.

**interested_observer** · 05-27-2015, 05:03 AM

Originally posted by Barry Pearson

I've done some analysis of one of the DNGs at DPReview:

DPReview: Preliminary Analysis

DPReview: Re-Preliminary Analysis

I used Lightroom CC, the DNG Converter, and "dng-validate.exe" from the DNG SDK.
Bad news. Looks like a screw-up by Ricoh!

If I remember correctly for the K3 on their HDR images, Ricoh had a capability within their supplied software - Silkyplex, to unbundle and extract all the associated images for further processing. Might they have done the same with this pixel shifting? Also, on the HDR there is lots of available software to process the multiple frame bracketed shots, but with PS I don't know of any post processing utilities that may provide an additional processing capability. Just thinking out loud....

... Is there anything in the user's manual that addresses this?

tomtor · 05-27-2015, 05:44 AM

Originally posted by eraser

PEF and DNG are uploading, in the meantime some JPGs.
Same procedure for all shots, first shot is PS off, AF for first then switched to MF for all following shots in that set with PS ON.
Some full size samples (Thanks to JohnBee for hosting):
http://199.168.184.48/eraser/IMGP0090.JPG
http://199.168.184.48/eraser/IMGP0091.JPG
http://199.168.184.48/eraser/IMGP0092.DNG
http://199.168.184.48/eraser/IMGP0093.PEF

IMGP0091.JPG shows artifacts on and to the right of the dandelion:

IMGP0092.DNG is from a different moment and has a different composition, so it is hard to compare output from
raw developers. It would be nice if we had the output from a RAW+ session (DNG and matching JPG).

I cannot see artifacts in the darktable produced IMGP0092_01.jpg, so I think it just uses the first 24mpixel data and
ignores the rest.

ISO1250 is also not ideal for quality assesment.

IMGP0092_01.jpg

Barry Pearson · 05-27-2015, 06:22 AM

Originally posted by interested_observer

If I remember correctly for the K3 on their HDR images, Ricoh had a capability within their supplied software - Silkyplex, to unbundle and extract all the associated images for further processing. Might they have done the same with this pixel shifting? Also, on the HDR there is lots of available software to process the multiple frame bracketed shots, but with PS I don't know of any post processing utilities that may provide an additional processing capability. Just thinking out loud....

... Is there anything in the user's manual that addresses this?

My main complaint is that they contravened the DNG specification. That is doomed to cause problems.

I can't find anything in the camera manual. I haven't got the software manual yet, because my K-3 II hasn't arrived yet.

tomtor · 05-27-2015, 06:40 AM

Originally posted by Barry Pearson

My main complaint is that they contravened the DNG specification. That is doomed to cause problems.

I can't find anything in the camera manual. I haven't got the software manual yet, because my K-3 II hasn't arrived yet.

There IS a bright side, if you use the PS option and the PS failed due to movement then you have access to your normal workflow with the big PS DNG and can create a normal image without the artifacts.

You could also fix the artifact spots in the PS output with a top overlay in photoshop with the non PS result.

I think the only workflow for now is to use the Pentax converter to convert a PS DNG to a 16 bit TIFF or DNG, and process this file in your normal raw workflow,
ie with lightroom or darktable or ...

That would not be a show stopper for me, PS is a specialty after all.

eraser · 05-27-2015, 06:42 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by tomtor

IMGP0091.JPG shows artifacts on and to the right of the dandelion:

IMGP0092.DNG is from a different moment and has a different composition, so it is hard to compare output from
raw developers. It would be nice if we had the output from a RAW+ session (DNG and matching JPG).

I cannot see artifacts in the darktable produced IMGP0092_01.jpg, so I think it just uses the first 24mpixel data and
ignores the rest.

ISO1250 is also not ideal for quality assesment.

IMGP0092_01.jpg

ontariomark · 05-27-2015, 06:45 AM

Originally posted by eraser

Thanks so much for posting these! To clarify are the DNG and PEF files for each image with PS on, or is the DNG with PS off and the PEF with PS ON (ie. following same order as jpegs)? Thanks, these are very useful samples to start things off!

eraser · 05-27-2015, 06:52 AM

Originally posted by ontariomark

Thanks so much for posting these! To clarify are the DNG and PEF files for each image with PS on, or is the DNG with PS off and the PEF with PS ON (ie. following same order as jpegs)? Thanks, these are very useful samples to start things off!

No worries.

Generally, the first jpg in a set I shot with PS OFF and the following DNG/PEF/JPG are with PS ON.
All are directly out of camera with no pef->dng conversion or anything. I changed settings in the menu and took 4/5 separate shots.
IMGP0126.DNG/IMGP0126.JPG are just a DNG+ with PS ON.
I'll do some more samples tonight if wants anything specific.

ontariomark · 05-27-2015, 06:57 AM

Originally posted by eraser

No worries.

Generally, the first jpg in a set I shot with PS OFF and the following DNG/PEF/JPG are with PS ON.
All are directly out of camera with no pef->dng conversion or anything. I changed settings in the menu and took 4/5 separate shots.
IMGP0126.DNG/IMGP0126.JPG are just a DNG+ with PS ON.
I'll do some more samples tonight if wants anything specific.

Great, thank you! If you have time I would love to see some raw files with PS off. Subjects that show fine detail and lots of dynamic range--ie. shot of some trees with grass, for example, and skintones if possible. If you have an external flash, I would love to see how fill flash looks towards the sun with a person if possible.
Also very curious how the new AF-C tracking works!
Really appreciate it all this!
--Mark

tomtor · 05-27-2015, 07:01 AM

Originally posted by eraser

Interesting! I shot high ISO for that set because somebody was interested in how it affected the PS. Some of the others are lower ISO.
These are all directly off the SD card and out of the camera. Anything else you want to see?
I am uploading a DNG+JPG combo for you to play with (still uploading so all links may not work):

Thanks for your efforts, got them!

Created a jpeg with darktable with zero adjustments:

IMGP0121dt.jpg

The out of camera PS jpeg is clearly better:

http://199.168.184.48/eraser/IMGP0121.JPG

05-27-2015, 03:13 AM	#63
kh1234567890 Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Manchester, UK Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,653	Faststone appears to load and render the PEF and DNG files without any problem. Claims they are 6080x4032 for the PEF and 6028x4024 24Mp 24 bit for the DNG. Rawdigger also opens both and renders them to 4x the resolution of the individual channels as it sees them. In other words, libraw/dcraw is happy with the files. Last edited by kh1234567890; 05-27-2015 at 03:30 AM.

05-27-2015, 05:44 AM	#68
tomtor Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Netherlands Posts: 382	Originally posted by eraser PEF and DNG are uploading, in the meantime some JPGs. Same procedure for all shots, first shot is PS off, AF for first then switched to MF for all following shots in that set with PS ON. Some full size samples (Thanks to JohnBee for hosting): http://199.168.184.48/eraser/IMGP0090.JPG http://199.168.184.48/eraser/IMGP0091.JPG http://199.168.184.48/eraser/IMGP0092.DNG http://199.168.184.48/eraser/IMGP0093.PEF IMGP0091.JPG shows artifacts on and to the right of the dandelion: IMGP0092.DNG is from a different moment and has a different composition, so it is hard to compare output from raw developers. It would be nice if we had the output from a RAW+ session (DNG and matching JPG). I cannot see artifacts in the darktable produced IMGP0092_01.jpg, so I think it just uses the first 24mpixel data and ignores the rest. ISO1250 is also not ideal for quality assesment. IMGP0092_01.jpg Last edited by tomtor; 05-27-2015 at 05:47 AM. Reason: Added ISO remark

05-27-2015, 06:45 AM	#72
ontariomark New Member Join Date: May 2015 Posts: 17	clarification Originally posted by eraser PEF and DNG are uploading, in the meantime some JPGs. Same procedure for all shots, first shot is PS off, AF for first then switched to MF for all following shots in that set with PS ON. Some full size samples (Thanks to JohnBee for hosting): http://199.168.184.48/eraser/IMGP0090.JPG http://199.168.184.48/eraser/IMGP0091.JPG http://199.168.184.48/eraser/IMGP0092.DNG http://199.168.184.48/eraser/IMGP0093.PEF http://199.168.184.48/eraser/IMGP0097.JPG http://199.168.184.48/eraser/IMGP0098.JPG http://199.168.184.48/eraser/IMGP0099.DNG http://199.168.184.48/eraser/IMGP0100.PEF http://199.168.184.48/eraser/IMGP0102.JPG http://199.168.184.48/eraser/IMGP0103.JPG http://199.168.184.48/eraser/IMGP0104.DNG http://199.168.184.48/eraser/IMGP0105.PEF http://199.168.184.48/eraser/IMGP0106.JPG http://199.168.184.48/eraser/IMGP0107.JPG http://199.168.184.48/eraser/IMGP0108.DNG http://199.168.184.48/eraser/IMGP0109.PEF http://199.168.184.48/eraser/IMGP0112.JPG http://199.168.184.48/eraser/IMGP0113.JPG Thanks so much for posting these! To clarify are the DNG and PEF files for each image with PS on, or is the DNG with PS off and the PEF with PS ON (ie. following same order as jpegs)? Thanks, these are very useful samples to start things off!

05-27-2015, 07:01 AM	#75
tomtor Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Netherlands Posts: 382	Originally posted by eraser Interesting! I shot high ISO for that set because somebody was interested in how it affected the PS. Some of the others are lower ISO. These are all directly off the SD card and out of the camera. Anything else you want to see? I am uploading a DNG+JPG combo for you to play with (still uploading so all links may not work): Thanks for your efforts, got them! Created a jpeg with darktable with zero adjustments: IMGP0121dt.jpg The out of camera PS jpeg is clearly better: http://199.168.184.48/eraser/IMGP0121.JPG Last edited by tomtor; 05-27-2015 at 07:16 AM.

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05-27-2015, 01:51 AM	#61
Gimbal Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Sweden Posts: 2,106	Ok, but is it the pixelshifted result you get, or only one of the four exposures? Search for artifacts from moving grass as can be seen in down right corner of picture 0091.jpg

05-27-2015, 02:03 AM	#62
tomtor Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Netherlands Posts: 382	Originally posted by jbinpg Yes, sir. Loads just like a regular DNG. That's nice! Are the demosaic options disabled in darktable? I would expect that if the equivalent of a 24mpix 16bit rgb image is stored in the k3ii DNG. I will have a look at the internals of the dng later this day when I am back from work. ---------- Post added 05-27-15 at 11:21 AM ---------- Originally posted by jbinpg Alas, the PEF will not open in my raw developer of choice (darktable) - unknown format. I imagine it will be the same for other raw developers until an update to handle the new format is released. Jack I could work on a darktable PEF fix but I wonder if that is worth the effort because most people (myself included) use DNG. Are there any users on this forum who would like to see support for this?

05-27-2015, 04:17 AM	#64
tomtor Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Netherlands Posts: 382	Originally posted by kh1234567890 Faststone appears to load and render the PEF and DNG files without any problem. Claims they are 6080x4032 for the PEF and 6028x4024 24Mp 24 bit for the DNG. Rawdigger also opens both and renders them to 4x the resolution of the individual channels as it sees them. In other words, libraw/dcraw is happy with the files. 24 bit for the dng means 8 bit per channel, that cannot be right. That would mean a 3 byte (rgb) x 24Mpixel is about 72 megabyte dng. The file is about two times bigger so we can assume that it really stores 14 or 16 bit for each channel. Perhaps faststone uses the embedded jpeg preview. The rawdigger results hints at the following approach. The data is encoded as from a hypothetical 96mpix (4 x 24mpix) bayer sensor. That makes sense. Last edited by tomtor; 05-27-2015 at 04:29 AM.

05-27-2015, 04:22 AM	#65
Barry Pearson Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Stockport Posts: 964	Originally posted by Gimbal Wait a minute, are you saying that you can develop the DNG-file in a non Pentax program? Originally posted by Gimbal Ok, but is it the pixelshifted result you get, or only one of the four exposures? Search for artifacts from moving grass as can be seen in down right corner of picture 0091.jpg I've done some analysis of one of the DNGs at DPReview: DPReview: Preliminary Analysis DPReview: Re-Preliminary Analysis I used Lightroom CC, the DNG Converter, and "dng-validate.exe" from the DNG SDK. Bad news. Looks like a screw-up by Ricoh!

05-27-2015, 04:59 AM	#66
kh1234567890 Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Manchester, UK Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,653	Originally posted by tomtor Perhaps faststone uses the embedded jpeg preview. And pressing 'A' in Faststone runs the dcraw based demosaic/render. The files also open in SilkyPix Pro 6 and RawTherapee.

05-27-2015, 05:03 AM	#67
interested_observer Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Tumbleweed, Arizona Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 5,707	Originally posted by Barry Pearson I've done some analysis of one of the DNGs at DPReview: DPReview: Preliminary Analysis DPReview: Re-Preliminary Analysis I used Lightroom CC, the DNG Converter, and "dng-validate.exe" from the DNG SDK. Bad news. Looks like a screw-up by Ricoh! If I remember correctly for the K3 on their HDR images, Ricoh had a capability within their supplied software - Silkyplex, to unbundle and extract all the associated images for further processing. Might they have done the same with this pixel shifting? Also, on the HDR there is lots of available software to process the multiple frame bracketed shots, but with PS I don't know of any post processing utilities that may provide an additional processing capability. Just thinking out loud.... ... Is there anything in the user's manual that addresses this?

05-27-2015, 06:22 AM	#69
Barry Pearson Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Stockport Posts: 964	Originally posted by interested_observer If I remember correctly for the K3 on their HDR images, Ricoh had a capability within their supplied software - Silkyplex, to unbundle and extract all the associated images for further processing. Might they have done the same with this pixel shifting? Also, on the HDR there is lots of available software to process the multiple frame bracketed shots, but with PS I don't know of any post processing utilities that may provide an additional processing capability. Just thinking out loud.... ... Is there anything in the user's manual that addresses this? My main complaint is that they contravened the DNG specification. That is doomed to cause problems. I can't find anything in the camera manual. I haven't got the software manual yet, because my K-3 II hasn't arrived yet.

05-27-2015, 06:40 AM	#70
tomtor Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Netherlands Posts: 382	Originally posted by Barry Pearson My main complaint is that they contravened the DNG specification. That is doomed to cause problems. I can't find anything in the camera manual. I haven't got the software manual yet, because my K-3 II hasn't arrived yet. There IS a bright side, if you use the PS option and the PS failed due to movement then you have access to your normal workflow with the big PS DNG and can create a normal image without the artifacts. You could also fix the artifact spots in the PS output with a top overlay in photoshop with the non PS result. I think the only workflow for now is to use the Pentax converter to convert a PS DNG to a 16 bit TIFF or DNG, and process this file in your normal raw workflow, ie with lightroom or darktable or ... That would not be a show stopper for me, PS is a specialty after all.

05-27-2015, 06:42 AM - 1 Like	#71
eraser Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Victoria, BC Posts: 32	Originally posted by tomtor IMGP0091.JPG shows artifacts on and to the right of the dandelion: IMGP0092.DNG is from a different moment and has a different composition, so it is hard to compare output from raw developers. It would be nice if we had the output from a RAW+ session (DNG and matching JPG). I cannot see artifacts in the darktable produced IMGP0092_01.jpg, so I think it just uses the first 24mpixel data and ignores the rest. ISO1250 is also not ideal for quality assesment. IMGP0092_01.jpg Interesting! I shot high ISO for that set because somebody was interested in how it affected the PS. Some of the others are lower ISO. These are all directly off the SD card and out of the camera. Anything else you want to see? I am uploading a DNG+JPG combo for you to play with (still uploading so all links may not work): http://199.168.184.48/eraser/IMGP0122.JPG http://199.168.184.48/eraser/IMGP0123.JPG http://199.168.184.48/eraser/IMGP0125.DNG http://199.168.184.48/eraser/IMGP0125.JPG http://199.168.184.48/eraser/IMGP0117.JPG http://199.168.184.48/eraser/IMGP0118.JPG http://199.168.184.48/eraser/IMGP0121.JPG http://199.168.184.48/eraser/IMGP0121.DNG http://199.168.184.48/eraser/IMGP0126.JPG http://199.168.184.48/eraser/IMGP0126.DNG

05-27-2015, 06:52 AM	#73
eraser Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Victoria, BC Posts: 32	Originally posted by ontariomark Thanks so much for posting these! To clarify are the DNG and PEF files for each image with PS on, or is the DNG with PS off and the PEF with PS ON (ie. following same order as jpegs)? Thanks, these are very useful samples to start things off! No worries. Generally, the first jpg in a set I shot with PS OFF and the following DNG/PEF/JPG are with PS ON. All are directly out of camera with no pef->dng conversion or anything. I changed settings in the menu and took 4/5 separate shots. IMGP0126.DNG/IMGP0126.JPG are just a DNG+ with PS ON. I'll do some more samples tonight if wants anything specific.

05-27-2015, 06:57 AM	#74
ontariomark New Member Join Date: May 2015 Posts: 17	Originally posted by eraser No worries. Generally, the first jpg in a set I shot with PS OFF and the following DNG/PEF/JPG are with PS ON. All are directly out of camera with no pef->dng conversion or anything. I changed settings in the menu and took 4/5 separate shots. IMGP0126.DNG/IMGP0126.JPG are just a DNG+ with PS ON. I'll do some more samples tonight if wants anything specific. Great, thank you! If you have time I would love to see some raw files with PS off. Subjects that show fine detail and lots of dynamic range--ie. shot of some trees with grass, for example, and skintones if possible. If you have an external flash, I would love to see how fill flash looks towards the sun with a person if possible. Also very curious how the new AF-C tracking works! Really appreciate it all this! --Mark

K3II: Pixel Shift First Test

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