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06-20-2015, 01:28 PM   #61
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Only had my K3 for a few days running 1.11. Have downloaded 1.21 but haven't yet updated. Better coding may make the camera lighter!

Having taken few photos I don't really have any experience of 1.11 bugs.

Reading this thread and a slight knowledge of firmware in general, leads me to the conclusion to update but only once the bugs present themselves or after timely use of the camera as is.

This would allow the opportunity for future updates to arrive.

06-20-2015, 10:54 PM   #62
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I've been planning to buy an additional camera in the next month or so. I'm still contemplating on buying either a K-5IIs or K-3. I'm just curious about this 1.21 software. Would this include the 1.11 feature that addresses the mirror flap or do I first install the 1.11 then the 1.21? Just trying to find out what to do in case I go for a K-3. Thanks.
06-20-2015, 11:04 PM   #63
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It's cumulative. V1.21 includes all the previous tweaks.
06-21-2015, 12:42 AM   #64
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
IMO, focus tracking works best with a f2.8 lens. I noticed that the camera (K-3 or K-5) AF has two handicaps:
- sensitivity to a change of subject position (sometimes, the camera waits too long before it reevaluate focus), by them the lens has to catch-up.
- in case of a subject moving away or coming towards the photographer, the AF is lost because of the size on the subject, and there are no enough AF points to cover a small subject
- no predictive AF (maybe in the K-3II ?), Pentax AF is only reactive, always trying to catch-up on the moving target
Strange I've found the k3 predictive AF highly effective and used correctly with hold AF moderately sophisticated.

What make you say 'no predictive' AF are you perhaps attempting AF-c with single point selected which will always seems to deliver follow me focusing (limited predictive data from a single point + 86k sensor)

Safox has a form of predictive AF since safox ii I'm sure pentax wouldn't have removed it in later iterations it has never been upto Nikon or Canon 'fuzzy' logic approach and seems only really effective for x-y movement where the current cutting edge handles x,y and Z and utilising expanded AF non linear movment.

But I note Pentax are attempting to address this in later bodies K3ii on which should see marginal improvement for perpendicular movement

06-21-2015, 01:02 AM - 1 Like   #65
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QuoteOriginally posted by awaldram Quote
Strange I've found the k3 predictive AF highly effective and used correctly with hold AF moderately sophisticated.
It's interesting, no I'm not using center point in AFC but I always had the impression that the AFC was always behind the target.
How do you define "predictive AF"? To me "predictive" means that depending on the velocity of the target the AF does not wait for the target to be out of focus to readjust the focus.
I mean that if you consider a PID (Proportinal, Integral, Derivative) controller, I believe that Pentax AF controller only uses a proportional section, whereas the 7D does calculate the next focus base on previous speed of target (from the derivative value), and so is able to reactuate the lens focus position based on next predicted position of target.

Last edited by biz-engineer; 06-21-2015 at 01:12 AM.
06-21-2015, 01:48 AM   #66
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QuoteOriginally posted by Paul the Sunman Quote
It's cumulative. V1.21 includes all the previous tweaks.
Thanks
06-21-2015, 04:05 AM   #67
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QuoteOriginally posted by awaldram Quote
Strange I've found the k3 predictive AF highly effective and used correctly with hold AF moderately sophisticated.

What make you say 'no predictive' AF are you perhaps attempting AF-c with single point selected which will always seems to deliver follow me focusing (limited predictive data from a single point + 86k sensor)

Safox has a form of predictive AF since safox ii I'm sure pentax wouldn't have removed it in later iterations it has never been upto Nikon or Canon 'fuzzy' logic approach and seems only really effective for x-y movement where the current cutting edge handles x,y and Z and utilising expanded AF non linear movment.

But I note Pentax are attempting to address this in later bodies K3ii on which should see marginal improvement for perpendicular movement
Thanks for posting. PENTAX has done a poor job helping users like me understand what AF settings to use in different environments. PENTAX cold probably help me and others get better Auto Focus results by publishing a supplement to the skimpy manual just dealing with auto focus settings.
Could you share your settings
  • Auto Focus Area
In section C:
  • item 16 - Release Priority - Release Priority (default Setting), Auto, Focus Priority
  • item 17 - Action in AF.C Continuous - Focus Priority (default setting), Auto fps -priority
  • item 18 - Hold AF Status - Off (default setting), Low, Medium, High
Thanks
06-21-2015, 08:39 AM   #68
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Pentax and/or Ricoh User Manuals

QuoteOriginally posted by RockvilleBob Quote
PENTAX cold probably help me and others get better Auto Focus results by publishing a supplement to the skimpy manual just dealing with auto focus settings.
I wouldn't hold my breath for that. As much as I love the K-3 (upgrading from a K20D), I was very disappointed in the Ricoh K-3 manual - it was about 1/3 the size of the K20D manual. I suppose one could hope that the K-3's manual might have cut out all kinds of extra fluff or something, and just presented exactly what the user needed to know, but I know that the K20D manual was not bloated, and had much more useful explanatory info than does the K-3's.

[I think, but I am not sure of this, that the K20D came with a "full" manual and a "getting started" booklet (much shorter in size). It seems to me that the K-3's manual is about half-way between those two (not just in size, but in usefulness for a user with moderate experience).]

As for an AF supplement, I'd rather see a "full" manual to start with, having ~all~ of the info that a user could ever possibly need in it (and with a well-designed complete index). [If Ricoh thinks that a new user might be overly intimidated by such a manual, then it could pack the manual "in the box" along with a well-designed "getting started" guide.]

06-21-2015, 11:03 AM   #69
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QuoteOriginally posted by fwcetus Quote
I wouldn't hold my breath for that. As much as I love the K-3 (upgrading from a K20D), I was very disappointed in the Ricoh K-3 manual - it was about 1/3 the size of the K20D manual. I suppose one could hope that the K-3's manual might have cut out all kinds of extra fluff or something, and just presented exactly what the user needed to know, but I know that the K20D manual was not bloated, and had much more useful explanatory info than does the K-3's.

[I think, but I am not sure of this, that the K20D came with a "full" manual and a "getting started" booklet (much shorter in size). It seems to me that the K-3's manual is about half-way between those two (not just in size, but in usefulness for a user with moderate experience).]

As for an AF supplement, I'd rather see a "full" manual to start with, having ~all~ of the info that a user could ever possibly need in it (and with a well-designed complete index). [If Ricoh thinks that a new user might be overly intimidated by such a manual, then it could pack the manual "in the box" along with a well-designed "getting started" guide.]
I just checked to see if there was an updated manual for the K-3 II. I could not find one on the US Ricoh site. Maybe there is some hope that Ricoh is re-writing a manual for the K-3 II since the K-3 manual is so poorly executed and underwhelming in its coverage of the cameras operation and features.
Never mind - I did find a manual for the K-3 II - just a repeat of the atrocious K3 manual.
Before I pull the trigger to buy my next camera - hopefully the next generation Pentax cropped camera - I will download the manual. I refuse to pay what I consider a lot of money for a camera to wind up with something as bad as the K-3 manual.

Last edited by RockvilleBob; 06-21-2015 at 12:04 PM.
06-21-2015, 09:42 PM   #70
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QuoteOriginally posted by RockvilleBob Quote
I just checked to see if there was an updated manual for the K-3 II. I could not find one on the US Ricoh site. Maybe there is some hope that Ricoh is re-writing a manual for the K-3 II since the K-3 manual is so poorly executed and underwhelming in its coverage of the cameras operation and features.
Never mind - I did find a manual for the K-3 II - just a repeat of the atrocious K3 manual.
Before I pull the trigger to buy my next camera - hopefully the next generation Pentax cropped camera - I will download the manual. I refuse to pay what I consider a lot of money for a camera to wind up with something as bad as the K-3 manual.
There is a K-3 II manual (unfortunately similar to the "crippled" K-3 manual) at http://www.ricoh-imaging.co.jp/english/support/man-pdf/k-3-2.pdf .
06-22-2015, 08:22 AM - 1 Like   #71
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
It's interesting, no I'm not using center point in AFC but I always had the impression that the AFC was always behind the target.
How do you define "predictive AF"? To me "predictive" means that depending on the velocity of the target the AF does not wait for the target to be out of focus to readjust the focus.
I mean that if you consider a PID (Proportinal, Integral, Derivative) controller, I believe that Pentax AF controller only uses a proportional section, whereas the 7D does calculate the next focus base on previous speed of target (from the derivative value), and so is able to reactuate the lens focus position based on next predicted position of target.
Yep that's pretty much what I'd define as predictive. If you think about it all AF slr type cameras have to have some predictive capability else you could never take a sharp image of a moving target.

During the blackout period no AF data is coming to the camera , If the camera did not continue focusing the Target would be ooF by the time the shutter opened.

Sequence must be

1 focusing - > shutter pressed
2 mirror lifts -> camera predicts target location and focuses
3 Focus stops shutter opens

And in the case of AF-c repeat

Where Pentax falls down compared with other is in what Nikon call 3D focusing which is simply predictive in the x,y and z axis . Pentax is weak on the Z Axis though now they have the technology hardware in place (86k exposure sensor) to accurately detect front-back movement they just need algorithms and processing power to match.

You need obliviously accurate front back data for that you need to 'see' size increase/decrease (many acquisition points)
Algorithms to no what to-do with the data
and fast CPU so you can re-assess movement for erratic trajectories.
06-22-2015, 10:27 AM   #72
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QuoteOriginally posted by awaldram Quote
Sequence must be 1 focusing - > shutter pressed 2 mirror lifts -> camera predicts target location and focuses 3 Focus stops shutter opens And in the case of AF-c repeat Where Pentax falls down compared with other is in what Nikon call 3D focusing which is simply predictive in the x,y and z axis . Pentax is weak on the Z Axis though now they have the technology hardware in place (86k exposure sensor) to accurately detect front-back movement they just need algorithms and processing power to match. You need obliviously accurate front back data for that you need to 'see' size increase/decrease (many acquisition points) Algorithms to no what to-do with the data and fast CPU so you can re-assess movement for erratic trajectories.
Ok, now I understand better. I assume there is not much effort for af tracking when panning, but a lot more af perf is needed when the subject is move towards or away from the camera. So in this case in order to give more time to af prediction we should use a lower shutter rate such as M or L , instead of H, or even single shot and keep tracking with the shutter.
06-22-2015, 11:52 AM   #73
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I think there is some predictive logic going on. It is simply too slow, both the lenses and the body doing the calculation. When I got the K3 I did a test taking a number of shots of my dog running towards me. There were shots in focus further out but as it got close it couldn't keep up. But there had to be predictive logic because the dog was running through the depth of field in the latency time between shutter press and exposure. Some of the shots were obviously too slow with the nose out of focus but the body in focus. If there were no predictive logic, none would have been in focus. Close in the dog was able to outrun the lens motor.

I think the logic loop elapsed time is too slow. The lenses are too slow.

That being said each body is better as they work out the details and optimize their algorithms.

PDAF knows relative distance between samples by definition, so the information is there.
06-23-2015, 10:38 AM   #74
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Pentax didn't back date autofocus improvement from the K5ii to the original K5... so why do people think they would for the K3?

Just a thought

Thanks

Randy
06-23-2015, 03:27 PM   #75
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QuoteOriginally posted by slip Quote
Pentax didn't back date autofocus improvement from the K5ii to the original K5... so why do people think they would for the K3?

Just a thought

Thanks

Randy
The K-5 and K-5 II didn't use the same PDAF module. Not so with the K-3 and K-3 II.
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