Pentax k3II has the shutter lag problem wtih external flash

btnapa · 06-04-2015, 09:44 AM

Originally posted by ontariomark

So bummed, I just took delivery of a Pentax K3ii with 50mm lens (coming from Nikon camp). The camera works well overall, but when you attach an external flash (I've tried Pent af-540GZ), there is a noticeable lag before the camera will actually take a picture. Release priority selected on all focus modes. I thought maybe I was doing something wrong, but a quick search reveals 17 pages of forums comments on this issue with the K3. Did anyone ever find a solution. Does anyone know if the KS2 has this issue? My local stores don't carry Pentax to try.

I noticed the issue on my K3 when I got it a year ago. I do not do much on camera flash work so it did not bother me. I thought I was imagining things when it happened but I guess it is a known issue. If I did event work or work that required on camera flash, the lag would drive me crazy... you can miss a lot of split moment shots with this problem. For the life of me I can't understand why a world class pro camera should have a problem like this.

BTW, I have a 540 and a 360 and the problem is with both. I also have a Metz 52 AF-1 but I do not remember if K3 behaved the same way with the Metz.

Last edited by btnapa; 06-04-2015 at 09:45 AM. Reason: text edit

ScooterMaxi Jim · 06-04-2015, 12:58 PM

Originally posted by btnapa

I noticed the issue on my K3 when I got it a year ago. I do not do much on camera flash work so it did not bother me. I thought I was imagining things when it happened but I guess it is a known issue. If I did event work or work that required on camera flash, the lag would drive me crazy... you can miss a lot of split moment shots with this problem. For the life of me I can't understand why a world class pro camera should have a problem like this.

BTW, I have a 540 and a 360 and the problem is with both. I also have a Metz 52 AF-1 but I do not remember if K3 behaved the same way with the Metz.

It has nothing to do with the model of flash used, or the particular firmware (unless recently addressed in 1.21- which is highly doubtful). The Ricoh/Pentax engineers had a decision to make after the K-5 series fiasco - highly irregular flash performance without a lag (K-5), or consistent flash performance with a lengthy lag - and chose the latter. Actually, the design of the K-01/30/50/500 is the least offensive pTTL to date - I'd rate it mediocre as opposed to all other implementations which disqualify it for consistent, critical professional work. Many Pentaxians say they can live with it, but they apparently have no desire to the mental workarounds and they tend not to have come from the systems that have fewer issues - Nikon is the best of the lot.

lister6520 · 06-05-2015, 12:30 PM

The daft thing about the lag is that it is before the camera does anything at all. I could possibly understand if it does a preflash immediately then spent some time analysing the image of the preflash captured by the 86k sensor but it is not so.
You press the shutter, nothing detectable at all happens for a full 200mS or so then the preflash then almost immediately the mirror lifts, shutter opens and main flash fires. I had suspected it might be due to slow and/or inefficient communication between the flash and the camera but then I actually monitored the connections and found that there is no signal at all exchanged between the camera and flash in those first 200mS after pressing the shutter button, then after the delay everything happens in very quick succession practically as fast as mechanical limitations of the mirror, iris and shutter allow.

enoeske · 06-05-2015, 12:42 PM

Originally posted by lister6520

The daft thing about the lag is that it is before the camera does anything at all. I could possibly understand if it does a preflash immediately then spent some time analysing the image of the preflash captured by the 86k sensor but it is not so.
You press the shutter, nothing detectable at all happens for a full 200mS or so then the preflash then almost immediately the mirror lifts, shutter opens and main flash fires. I had suspected it might be due to slow and/or inefficient communication between the flash and the camera but then I actually monitored the connections and found that there is no signal at all exchanged between the camera and flash in those first 200mS after pressing the shutter button, then after the delay everything happens in very quick succession practically as fast as mechanical limitations of the mirror, iris and shutter allow.

That's pretty interesting. I always viewed it as a bug, and not as a compromise to ensure consistent P-TTL.

**Larrymc** · 06-06-2015, 07:31 AM

Hmmmmm. I just checked my K-3 with 1.21 firmware and I notice no appreciable delay when shooting P-TTL in manual mode. In AV and TV mode still no noticeable delay. I use a Sigma EF 610 DG super P-TTL flash unit. Could the problem lie with the Pentax branded flash units?

ScooterMaxi Jim · 06-06-2015, 09:17 AM

OK, enough of you are seeing that there is no lag that I decided to try it out with the new firmware 1.21 - and here's my total mea culpa. The problem is gone! The exposures are spot on. Spot on in direct (who uses that?), spot on in bounce, spot on with exposure compensation, spot on with wider apertures. No discernable lag. Shooting with the on-board flash - works fine. Shooting with an external, cheap generic flash - fine. The firmware fairy has done it. The irony is that Pentax has so little confidence in the flash system, they're taking away the on-board flash (K-3ii) at the precise time when it can prove most useful.

Keep in mind, flashes are relatively dumb - the camera controls both pre-flash and exposure flash. So all properly functioning pTTL flashes should perform similarly. Pentax has had so much egg on its face regarding the flash system that I guess the firmware improvement doesn't warrant drawing attention to the obvious fix. That's sad.

stevebrot · 06-06-2015, 09:47 AM

Originally posted by enoeske

That's pretty interesting. I always viewed it as a bug, and not as a compromise to ensure consistent P-TTL.

One person's bug is another person's feature. With any luck the two comments above are accurate and this tragic, horrible, negligent, fatal, (insert appropriate adjective here) flaw has been corrected with room for happiness for all.

Steve

stevebrot · 06-06-2015, 09:50 AM

FWIW, ScooterMaxiJim has started a new thread specific to firmware v1.21 as a fix for this issue on the standard model K-3.

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/172-pentax-k-3/297103-flash-lag-fixed-fw-1-21-a.html

Steve

lister6520 · 06-07-2015, 04:16 AM

Didn't work for me

First image is P-TTL with 1.02
Second is manual with 1.21
Third image is P-TTL with 1.21

No discernible difference between 1.02 and 1.21 in terms of lag but huge difference between manual and P-TTL regardless of firmware version. Still way too slow in P-TTL to capture 'spur of the moment' shots, which is when I need P-TTL most.

Not sure what's happening with the exposure probably nothing to do with the firmware upgrade - possibly inadvertently different orientation of the flash head before and after the update.

Pentaxeros · 06-09-2015, 12:56 AM

Hello. I do not see the picture

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06-04-2015, 09:44 AM	#16
btnapa Pentaxian Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 1,615	Originally posted by ontariomark So bummed, I just took delivery of a Pentax K3ii with 50mm lens (coming from Nikon camp). The camera works well overall, but when you attach an external flash (I've tried Pent af-540GZ), there is a noticeable lag before the camera will actually take a picture. Release priority selected on all focus modes. I thought maybe I was doing something wrong, but a quick search reveals 17 pages of forums comments on this issue with the K3. Did anyone ever find a solution. Does anyone know if the KS2 has this issue? My local stores don't carry Pentax to try. I noticed the issue on my K3 when I got it a year ago. I do not do much on camera flash work so it did not bother me. I thought I was imagining things when it happened but I guess it is a known issue. If I did event work or work that required on camera flash, the lag would drive me crazy... you can miss a lot of split moment shots with this problem. For the life of me I can't understand why a world class pro camera should have a problem like this. BTW, I have a 540 and a 360 and the problem is with both. I also have a Metz 52 AF-1 but I do not remember if K3 behaved the same way with the Metz. Last edited by btnapa; 06-04-2015 at 09:45 AM. Reason: text edit

06-04-2015, 12:58 PM	#17
ScooterMaxi Jim Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Minnesota Posts: 1,520	Originally posted by btnapa I noticed the issue on my K3 when I got it a year ago. I do not do much on camera flash work so it did not bother me. I thought I was imagining things when it happened but I guess it is a known issue. If I did event work or work that required on camera flash, the lag would drive me crazy... you can miss a lot of split moment shots with this problem. For the life of me I can't understand why a world class pro camera should have a problem like this. BTW, I have a 540 and a 360 and the problem is with both. I also have a Metz 52 AF-1 but I do not remember if K3 behaved the same way with the Metz. It has nothing to do with the model of flash used, or the particular firmware (unless recently addressed in 1.21- which is highly doubtful). The Ricoh/Pentax engineers had a decision to make after the K-5 series fiasco - highly irregular flash performance without a lag (K-5), or consistent flash performance with a lengthy lag - and chose the latter. Actually, the design of the K-01/30/50/500 is the least offensive pTTL to date - I'd rate it mediocre as opposed to all other implementations which disqualify it for consistent, critical professional work. Many Pentaxians say they can live with it, but they apparently have no desire to the mental workarounds and they tend not to have come from the systems that have fewer issues - Nikon is the best of the lot.

06-05-2015, 12:30 PM	#18
lister6520 Veteran Member Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 733	The daft thing about the lag is that it is before the camera does anything at all. I could possibly understand if it does a preflash immediately then spent some time analysing the image of the preflash captured by the 86k sensor but it is not so. You press the shutter, nothing detectable at all happens for a full 200mS or so then the preflash then almost immediately the mirror lifts, shutter opens and main flash fires. I had suspected it might be due to slow and/or inefficient communication between the flash and the camera but then I actually monitored the connections and found that there is no signal at all exchanged between the camera and flash in those first 200mS after pressing the shutter button, then after the delay everything happens in very quick succession practically as fast as mechanical limitations of the mirror, iris and shutter allow.

06-05-2015, 12:42 PM	#19
enoeske Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Surprise, Az Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,136	Originally posted by lister6520 The daft thing about the lag is that it is before the camera does anything at all. I could possibly understand if it does a preflash immediately then spent some time analysing the image of the preflash captured by the 86k sensor but it is not so. You press the shutter, nothing detectable at all happens for a full 200mS or so then the preflash then almost immediately the mirror lifts, shutter opens and main flash fires. I had suspected it might be due to slow and/or inefficient communication between the flash and the camera but then I actually monitored the connections and found that there is no signal at all exchanged between the camera and flash in those first 200mS after pressing the shutter button, then after the delay everything happens in very quick succession practically as fast as mechanical limitations of the mirror, iris and shutter allow. That's pretty interesting. I always viewed it as a bug, and not as a compromise to ensure consistent P-TTL.

06-06-2015, 07:31 AM	#20
Larrymc Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: Mississippi, USA Posts: 5,251	Hmmmmm. I just checked my K-3 with 1.21 firmware and I notice no appreciable delay when shooting P-TTL in manual mode. In AV and TV mode still no noticeable delay. I use a Sigma EF 610 DG super P-TTL flash unit. Could the problem lie with the Pentax branded flash units?

06-06-2015, 09:17 AM	#21
ScooterMaxi Jim Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Minnesota Posts: 1,520	OK, enough of you are seeing that there is no lag that I decided to try it out with the new firmware 1.21 - and here's my total mea culpa. The problem is gone! The exposures are spot on. Spot on in direct (who uses that?), spot on in bounce, spot on with exposure compensation, spot on with wider apertures. No discernable lag. Shooting with the on-board flash - works fine. Shooting with an external, cheap generic flash - fine. The firmware fairy has done it. The irony is that Pentax has so little confidence in the flash system, they're taking away the on-board flash (K-3ii) at the precise time when it can prove most useful. Keep in mind, flashes are relatively dumb - the camera controls both pre-flash and exposure flash. So all properly functioning pTTL flashes should perform similarly. Pentax has had so much egg on its face regarding the flash system that I guess the firmware improvement doesn't warrant drawing attention to the obvious fix. That's sad.

06-06-2015, 09:47 AM	#22
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by enoeske That's pretty interesting. I always viewed it as a bug, and not as a compromise to ensure consistent P-TTL. One person's bug is another person's feature. With any luck the two comments above are accurate and this tragic, horrible, negligent, fatal, (insert appropriate adjective here) flaw has been corrected with room for happiness for all. Steve

06-06-2015, 09:50 AM	#23
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	FWIW, ScooterMaxiJim has started a new thread specific to firmware v1.21 as a fix for this issue on the standard model K-3. https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/172-pentax-k-3/297103-flash-lag-fixed-fw-1-21-a.html Steve

06-07-2015, 04:16 AM	#24
lister6520 Veteran Member Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 733	Didn't work for me First image is P-TTL with 1.02 Second is manual with 1.21 Third image is P-TTL with 1.21 No discernible difference between 1.02 and 1.21 in terms of lag but huge difference between manual and P-TTL regardless of firmware version. Still way too slow in P-TTL to capture 'spur of the moment' shots, which is when I need P-TTL most. Not sure what's happening with the exposure probably nothing to do with the firmware upgrade - possibly inadvertently different orientation of the flash head before and after the update.

06-09-2015, 12:56 AM	#25
Pentaxeros New Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 20	Hello. I do not see the picture