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10-16-2015, 11:56 PM   #46
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DoF is not really an argument for or against full frame. Use case: full body portrait FF DoF @ 50mm f1.4 @ 16.4 feet (5 meters) = 2.64 feet (80 cm). APSC = 41% more DoF = 4 feet (1.2 meters). So, yeah, if your model is more than 2.64 feet deep, then APSC will look sharper (is the lens is that good @ f1.4 that the pixel density of the APSC will not help), otherwide, FF will be fine.

10-17-2015, 12:11 AM   #47
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QuoteOriginally posted by chiane Quote
Look dude, it's a personal opinion. I hate how this place goes all ham on anyone trying to give any opinion that isn't formulated out of perfect scientific lab test that need to hold up in Scientific America. I mean really. You need to evaluate your life if you are giving this guy grief for making a good effort at providing info for others.

Reminds me of Nation Lampoons vacation when the grouch old father in law, after looking at Clark's giant holiday light display, says, "Clark, you know the little white lights aren't blinking".


You seem to see conversation as a battle of egos. I have nothing against the OP. His photos are fine. But when someone makes a general claim in a forum, examining that claim is the natural direction for discussion. I am not interested in hurting someone's feelings and neither am I interested in stroking their egos. I just want to discuss the subject matter. If questioning claims makes you uncomfortable, maybe you should seek out discussion where every idea is of equal value and everyone gets a gold star on his work.
10-17-2015, 12:52 AM   #48
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QuoteOriginally posted by civiletti Quote
You seem to see conversation as a battle of egos.
This is a battle of egos. Subjective opinion against subjective opinion. In situation of incomplete information, the only thing we are to rely on is our subjective view that differ from person to person, depending on our background and personal history. So, that's the art of presenting incomplete information. In sales, we know that 99% of purchase decision starts with emotions and then we try to rationalize the decision by looking for elements that back out decision (even after a purchase, we are looking for rational elements to confirm our decision in order not to lose face). If the K-3II outresolves a D810, all owners of D810 will deny it, otherwise they'd lose face for having spent so much money. Now, what Pentaxians are doing with the K-3II is the same in reverse, Pentax does not currently offer a full frame camera, so, either people left to Nikon/Canon, or they say they don't need a full frame and they look for reasons to backup their claim, by doing a 100% crop comparison between a K-3 and a D610 for example, or by doing prints of K-3II pixel shift shot and from Canon 6D. At the end of the day, someone may buy a K-3II based on 48 inch print comparison and will post his pictures on the web and never do any large print.

Now, if you dig down every single details to know the truth, it will also be the truth given as set of accepted axioms. And if you find the truth base on scientific evidence (from commonly agreed scientific body of knowledge....), but that truth goes against the "socially proofed" thinking, you'll be shot down by the collective. As a scientist, you may publish some papers, and also be fired from the scientific community if you don't comply with commonly accepted rules. When in social interaction decides on our personal course (management ladder, or in politic), being "scientifically" correct does not matter, the degree to which you are liked will make you fate.... For instance, being elected as president, mostly depends on how well your speech compel to the audience, which consists of telling them what they like to hear (not the truth). There is no escape to social proof, it surround us in our every-day's life. To nail it down, I generalize by saying that most people taken individually are rather "smart" (if there is a definition for it), but when you put the same people in competition in groups, the results are rather idiotic. Just look at why and how wars happen, the practical result is nothing more then more people die for the personal interest of a few who will also die when their time will come, which if you look at it as an outsider looks really stupid, but for an insider is worth giving up life for irrational reasons.

K-3II versus 6D ? Well if you have a 6D, you'd probably pull out all the arguments in favor of the 6D, and if you own a K-3II, you look at pixel shift with a binocular and say that K-3II outperform other cameras. It's all about framing. So, here is Pentaxforum, the place to defend the merits of Pentax products (now Ricoh, but it does not matter). If Canon purchased Pentax imaging, how weird would that K-3II vs 6D discussion be?

Last edited by biz-engineer; 10-17-2015 at 01:59 AM.
10-17-2015, 02:37 AM - 1 Like   #49
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
If Canon purchased Pentax imaging, how weird would that K-3II vs 6D discussion be?
lol if anyone was to buy out pentax/ricoh it would be the very company that helped pentax regain a foothold in the dslr market in the first place (samsung)

10-17-2015, 02:44 AM   #50
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ratcheteer Quote
Originally posted by biz-engineer Quote If Canon purchased Pentax imaging, how weird would that K-3II vs 6D discussion be? lol if anyone was to buy out pentax/ricoh it would be the very company that helped pentax regain a foothold in the dslr market in the first place (samsung)
That would be a good idea...
10-17-2015, 02:49 AM   #51
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Has anybody commented on the fact he used a Tamron 17-50 opposed to a Canon L lens?
10-17-2015, 03:17 AM   #52
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QuoteOriginally posted by mohb Quote
Has anybody commented on the fact he used a Tamron 17-50 opposed to a Canon L lens?
Yeah , good point. The Tamron 17-50 is indeed a very good lens. My friend from Canon does not use a Canon lens, he uses a Tamron 17-50 on 7D and Tamron 28-75 on 5DIII. I bought the Tamron 17-50 from his recommendation and once I saw how good it was compared to my Pentax DA lenses, I sold the Pentax lenses and kept the Tamron, lol. Tamron and Sigma are not what they used to be. Today, Tamron and Sigma lenses can be as good or even better than OEM lenses. Currently I'm looking at the Sigma 24-105, not decided yet if I'd mount it on a Nikon or Canon, but the image quality is so good, that you can forget about the technical side of photography and concentrate purely on the artistic side (you don't have to think "should I use pixel shift or not, oh damn I forgot my tripod etc...").

Last edited by biz-engineer; 10-17-2015 at 03:24 AM.
10-17-2015, 04:04 AM   #53
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QuoteOriginally posted by civiletti Quote
You seem to see conversation as a battle of egos. I have nothing against the OP. His photos are fine. But when someone makes a general claim in a forum, examining that claim is the natural direction for discussion. I am not interested in hurting someone's feelings and neither am I interested in stroking their egos. I just want to discuss the subject matter. If questioning claims makes you uncomfortable, maybe you should seek out discussion where every idea is of equal value and everyone gets a gold star on his work.
There is a narrative out there that Pentax is "falling farther and farther behind" the big 3 of Canon, Nikon, and Sony. I would argue that Pentax has chosen to invest in different areas than those three companies, understanding that they have to be different in order to gain market share. A feature like pixel shift is one such option.

If anything, Canon is the company that is sliding, due to their relatively poor performing sensors. The K3 II has a DXO score of 80 and the 6D has a score of 82. If you delve deeper you find that the 6D has better SNR and better dynamic range over iso 800, while the K3 II has significantly better dynamic range below iso 800. It is not surprising that even straight up, at low iso, the K3 II could be a better landscape camera than the 6D. Throw in the pixel shift feature and it has the possibility of significantly out performing a low end full frame camera.

Canon still makes great cameras. Their auto focus on top end cameras is top notch, but their sensor tech is sure lagging behind the sensors of Sony and Toshiba. And you don't even need auto focus to shoot landscapes anyway. Live view and manual focus works a treat.

10-17-2015, 06:57 AM   #54
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
How many of us have shot ƒ1.4 on film? I doubt it's very many, you want us to run a poll? I know never did.
Once many years ago I borrowed a friends A 50 1.2 to try. I shot a few rolls of black and white and developed them in my darkroom. At f1.2 achieving an accurate focus was almost impossible, at f1.4 it was not much better, eyes in focus nose not. By f1.8 things got better as long as the subject didn't move. After using that lens I never saw the reason to own anything that fast. I couldn't justify the huge difference in price. It just wasn't for me. The number of situations were I could actually use anything under f1.8 were just too few. To me it seems some people are always thinking by switching brands or formats they are going to magically get much better results. If you feel you need to switch formats to be a better photographer you may want to spend more time examining your technique instead of charts and graphs posted on the internet.
10-17-2015, 08:05 AM   #55
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QuoteOriginally posted by Scorpio71GR Quote
Once many years ago I borrowed a friends A 50 1.2 to try. I shot a few rolls of black and white and developed them in my darkroom. At f1.2 achieving an accurate focus was almost impossible, at f1.4 it was not much better, eyes in focus nose not. By f1.8 things got better as long as the subject didn't move. After using that lens I never saw the reason to own anything that fast. I couldn't justify the huge difference in price. It just wasn't for me. The number of situations were I could actually use anything under f1.8 were just too few. To me it seems some people are always thinking by switching brands or formats they are going to magically get much better results. If you feel you need to switch formats to be a better photographer you may want to spend more time examining your technique instead of charts and graphs posted on the internet.
It gets harder to maintain adequate DoF as you go larger and larger format. You are going to have to know more, not less, to get acceptable results. If you didn't do the work toaster APS-c its unlikely you'll do the work to master FF. Going to a larger format means more understanding to get the same image, not less. The wider the lens, the larger the format, the more care has to go into each shot, that being said, there's not really much difference between APS-c and FF, and less between Pentax MF and FF. APS_c and MF is the logical set up, or possibly FF as the half way in between system if that's your preferred range. But many find 4/3 easier to use. They want to step back and make things even easier, not step up and make them more difficult.
10-17-2015, 10:57 AM   #56
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Ive been very happy with ASP-c. The K3 is more than enough camera for me. It has really rejuvenated my love of photography. If I were to get another it would most likely be a K3ii for the built in gps, since I forget to put mine on at times. Medium format is just out my price range. People regularly ask me why I still shoot with ASP-c. The answer is always the same. I see no reason to change from a system I am perfectly happy with. Before the K3 I did think of full frame, but now I do not see much reason for it.
10-17-2015, 05:05 PM   #57
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QuoteOriginally posted by civiletti Quote
You seem to see conversation as a battle of egos. I have nothing against the OP. His photos are fine. But when someone makes a general claim in a forum, examining that claim is the natural direction for discussion. I am not interested in hurting someone's feelings and neither am I interested in stroking their egos. I just want to discuss the subject matter. If questioning claims makes you uncomfortable, maybe you should seek out discussion where every idea is of equal value and everyone gets a gold star on his work.


Yes, that's fine, I have a pretty thick skin and will fling crap right back on people which then they really hate and start freaking out.


Pointing out the little white lights aint blinking in the giant Christmas display is really a PIA... (good one.)


AND, sometimes the results are just big generalizations: I made two prints. I did as best I could. The Pentax did better. If you don't like it, run your own tests and spend your own $200 on prints and $3500 on cameras and lenses and maybe you will have a result you like better. I will know better what's what as more results come in. (I think I said that too.)
10-17-2015, 06:52 PM   #58
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ratcheteer Quote
lol if anyone was to buy out pentax/ricoh it would be the very company that helped pentax regain a foothold in the dslr market in the first place (samsung)
One of those "suppressed" chapters in Pentax history I assume?


Steve

Last edited by stevebrot; 10-17-2015 at 07:00 PM.
10-17-2015, 06:58 PM   #59
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
that being said, there's not really much difference between APS-c and FF
This point can not be overemphasized. Many of us move freely between 35mm film and APS-C digital. The required adjustment related to format is trivial for the most part.


Steve
10-18-2015, 02:52 AM   #60
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QuoteOriginally posted by Qwntm Quote
I made two prints. I did as best I could. The Pentax did better.
If you read this post, could you please add the settings (such as aperture, focal length and distance to subject), you used for your K-3II / 6D experiment ? Yesterday I was out with my K-3 for stitching but was hard to get everything sharp, due the DoF. When considering APSC vs FF, does diffraction catch-up faster than DoF ? I mean, for the same DoF on FF, the aperture should be one stop smaller, which at f16 introduces diffraction. Just wondering how to manage DoF trade-off , especially when going up to MF.

Last edited by biz-engineer; 10-18-2015 at 06:39 AM.
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