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10-28-2015, 10:47 PM   #91
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QuoteOriginally posted by cali92rs Quote
Let us not forget that with pixel shift, you have to use a tripod, and have a static scene. If you are using a tripod, you can get HDR, or any other technique requiring multiple exposures, from any camera which negate the pixel shift advantage. And the software to combine these images are generally pretty cheap and easy to use.
Sure pixel shift is somewhat easier, but less flexible.
I wouldn't be comparing multiple exposures and HDR from a Bayer sensor with pixel shift.
Each image of a multiple exposure, or HDR, has had it's R, G and B values obtained by an interpolation process, whereas a pixel shift image has not.

Cheers,
Terry

10-28-2015, 11:02 PM   #92
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I know the differences, i have a K-3II.
I have also compared first hand images made with pixel shift and those made by exposure blending, HDR etc.
In real life, when the HDR is done properly, is at least as sharp as those made by pixel shift.

Dont take my word for it...these techniques are not new at all and there are plenty of excellent examples online.

The real advantage to pixel shift is that it simplifies the workflow.
10-29-2015, 01:18 AM   #93
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QuoteOriginally posted by tduell Quote
I wouldn't be comparing multiple exposures and HDR from a Bayer sensor with pixel shift.
Each image of a multiple exposure, or HDR, has had it's R, G and B values obtained by an interpolation process, whereas a pixel shift image has not.

Cheers,
Terry
Sure the technique is different but this is just another technique based on multiple photos of the same scene. The next step is a panorama where the effort is again a bit more but the results can be even better in the end. I took a pano in spain in Ronda, It is not 3:2 but 2.5:1 and has 50MP... If I did the same with pixel shift a fish eye and cropping to keep the 1:2.5 ratio + a bit of de-fishing I would have go theoretically 14MP and the de-fish process would have altered the quality.

Even I did a single shoot with the 5DS, I would have got "only" 29MP due to the aspect ratio.

To do that, I didn't even had to shoot on a tripod. Complexity to stich? I used Microsoft ICE 2, this one is very easy to use and managed to avoid the issues other panos software I tried and is 100% free.

Think of that, I was in vacation, no tripod, it too mee a few seconds to capture the panorama and I got lot of resolution, lot of details and more importantly still, the panorama I wanted.

Pixel shift is usefull but the conditions are very specific. When you stich a pano you can even manage moving objects if they stay on a single frame.

Last edited by Nicolas06; 10-30-2015 at 01:14 AM.
10-29-2015, 03:01 AM   #94
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QuoteOriginally posted by cali92rs Quote
I know the differences, i have a K-3II.
I have also compared first hand images made with pixel shift and those made by exposure blending, HDR etc.
In real life, when the HDR is done properly, is at least as sharp as those made by pixel shift.

Dont take my word for it...these techniques are not new at all and there are plenty of excellent examples online.

The real advantage to pixel shift is that it simplifies the workflow.
The hard part with HDR is that it is a separate tool requiring separate software that is hard to "do well." I use it some in my work flow and it does add detail and decreases noise, but it took my quite awhile before I could turn out images with it that didn't look like they were screen shots of a new video game.

The biggest benefit of pixel shift as compared to that is that it looks very natural and just adds detail/color depth to the image.

10-29-2015, 07:26 AM   #95
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I don't think it is hard. It just takes some practice. If you are selling 60" prints, you probably have been making pictures for a while. Why not spend less than $100 on software and a couple months practicing with it so you can have a tool more powerful than pixel shift?
With pixel shift, the likelihood of getting those weird artifacts is very high (believe me it is very frustrating at how little motion is required to get it) and if you print large, you should be doing some cloning or blending to get rid of the artifacts.

Last edited by cali92rs; 10-29-2015 at 07:35 AM.
10-29-2015, 07:47 AM   #96
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QuoteQuote:
With pixel shift, the likelihood of getting those weird artifacts is very high (believe me it is very frustrating at how little motion is required to get it) and if you print large, you should be doing some cloning or blending to get rid of the artifacts.
Darn, that's not what I was hoping to hear.
10-29-2015, 07:51 AM   #97
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I am not trying to knock pixel shift. When the stars align,it really is shocking how good the results look. But I have had my camera for a few months now and the number of scenes that are suitable for pixel shift is very small. Any small gust of wind where leaves or grass slightly move and you are blending and cloning. Same thing with a pond where a mosquito lands on the water and you get some disturbance.
10-29-2015, 07:55 AM   #98
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QuoteOriginally posted by cali92rs Quote
I am not trying to knock pixel shift. When the stars align,it really is shocking how good the results look. But I have had my camera for a few months now and the number of scenes that are suitable for pixel shift is very small. Any small gust of wind where leaves or grass slightly move and you are blending and cloning. Same thing with a pond where a mosquito lands on the water and you get some disturbance.
I really feel like this is a starting place. I remember the initial implementation of HDR on Pentax cameras and it was pretty useless. At this point, it really does a decent job hand held. I don't think pixel shift will ever be usable hand held, but I would be surprised if there wasn't some type of artifact elimination algorithm that is used down the road that will blend the exposures without the artifacts.

10-29-2015, 08:52 AM   #99
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I really feel like this is a starting place. I remember the initial implementation of HDR on Pentax cameras and it was pretty useless. At this point, it really does a decent job hand held. I don't think pixel shift will ever be usable hand held, but I would be surprised if there wasn't some type of artifact elimination algorithm that is used down the road that will blend the exposures without the artifacts.
I really see the pixel shift as the home run... I know it's not going to produce very often. Like in baseball, do you take the big long swing for the home run, or the shorter more compact swing for the high batting average? You can win both ways. But, the pixel shift has to be turned on, so, you can have it both ways. Off when you know it won't work, on when you think you might have a chance.

Last edited by normhead; 10-31-2015 at 10:35 AM.
10-29-2015, 09:33 AM   #100
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I really feel like this is a starting place. I remember the initial implementation of HDR on Pentax cameras and it was pretty useless. At this point, it really does a decent job hand held. I don't think pixel shift will ever be usable hand held, but I would be surprised if there wasn't some type of artifact elimination algorithm that is used down the road that will blend the exposures without the artifacts.
Definitely, technology marches on.
10-29-2015, 12:57 PM   #101
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I really feel like this is a starting place. I remember the initial implementation of HDR on Pentax cameras and it was pretty useless. At this point, it really does a decent job hand held. I don't think pixel shift will ever be usable hand held, but I would be surprised if there wasn't some type of artifact elimination algorithm that is used down the road that will blend the exposures without the artifacts.
In theory in day light if your could say expose at iso 25 and still keep a fast enough shutter speed to keep the picture sharp (either from hand skake or subject movement) then it could be done handled. We could even argue if a pixel shit shot at iso 50, 100, 200 or maybe even 400 couldn't be a better compromize than a single shoot at iso 100...

Of course this would highly depend on how fast the SR can move of exactly 1 px and how fast the sensor can accept a new image, but I don't see any reason for this to not work one day or another.

Last edited by Nicolas06; 10-30-2015 at 01:15 AM.
10-29-2015, 03:35 PM   #102
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
'Perfect is the enemy of good'.
"Perfect" definitely will work, but "Better" is generally sufficient.


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10-29-2015, 03:37 PM   #103
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QuoteOriginally posted by tduell Quote
I wouldn't be comparing multiple exposures and HDR from a Bayer sensor with pixel shift.
Thank you for pointing this out. I made a sideways attempt above in regards to super-resolution, but nobody was paying attention. Pixel shift is related to other image merge strategies, but unique in its implementation.


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10-29-2015, 08:19 PM   #104
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i wanna see pixel shift vs focus stacking
10-30-2015, 01:03 AM   #105
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
Sure the technique is different but this is just another technique based on multiple photos of the same scene. The next step is a panorama where the effort is again a bit more but the results can be even better in the end. I took a pano in spain in Ronda, It is not 3:2 but 2.5:1 and has 50MP... If I did the same with pixel shift a fish eye and cropping to keep the 1:2.5 ratio + a bit of de-fishing I would have go theoretically 14MP and the de-fish process would have altered the quality. Even I did a single shoot with the 5DS, I would have got "only" 29MP due to the aspect ratio. To do that, I didn't even had to shoot on a tripod. Complexity to stich? I used Microsoft ICE 2, this one is very easy to use and managed to avoid the issues other panos software I tried had and is 100% free. Think of that, I was in vacation, no tripod, it too mee a few seconds to capture the panorama and I got lot of resolution, lot of details and more importantly still, the panorama I wanted. Pixel shift is usefull but the conditions are very specific. When you stich a pano you can even manage moving objects if they stay on a single frame.
You are right, as soon as you allow multi-shot techniques, the sky is the limit as far as resolution and image quality are concerned. For more resolution you can stitch, for less noise you can stack, and for more dynamic range you can use HDR or exposure fusion to keep a natural look. I was using HDR and recently tried simple exposure fusion of the stack of images from the k-3 and the results are amazing. I do also have a pano head (to rotate around the nodal axing, and it's just perfect), but above 35mm, even stitching from carrefully taken handheld images works just fine even with free software, as you mentioned.

QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
In theory in day light if your could say expose at iso 25 and still keep a fast enough shutter speed to keep the picture sharp (either from hand skake or subject movement) then it could be done handled. We could even argue if a pixel shit shot at iso 50, 100, 200 or maybe even 400 couldn't be a better compromize than a single shoot at iso 100... Of course this would highly depend on how fact the SR can move of exactly 1 px and how fast the sensor can accept a new image, but I don't see any reason for this to not work one day or another.
Well, with smart processing (RGB alignment) of multiple shots with randomly shifted, I guess that already exists, you can improve color accuracy and noise and give more room for sharpening. IMO you are about touching a good point right regarding different ISO, also I would say that slightly different exposures (+-0.3ev) is even better because it allows to also average out more than random noise but linearity and quantization noise as well. It's not so sure that pixel shift as it is implemented in the K-3II could be done handheld with 4 frames captured within one equivalent iso 100 frame. But I see you point. I always thought that photos could be the result of processing video frames....so basically, recording a large number of interleaved video frames and process them to make a photo...
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