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02-07-2016, 03:00 AM   #46
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For what it's worth, this is 1/10 hand held at 300mm
It's not tack sharp, but it's not bad. I'll take it as evidence that shake reduction works



02-07-2016, 04:37 AM   #47
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QuoteOriginally posted by Gimbal Quote
Pentax (at least the K5 and newer) has the hardware needed to do the same 5-axis SR as Sony and Oly but still they don't do it, lack of software apparently.
its not a question of software but of designing a system that doesn't infringe on sonys and Olys patents, yes the k5 might have the same hardware but do they really wanna pay a licencing fee to use it? and if they do adopt sonys 5-axis SR it would only work on modern lenses.
02-07-2016, 04:38 AM   #48
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ratcheteer Quote
and if they do adopt sonys 5-axis SR it would only work on modern lenses.
Why would it only work on modern lenses?
02-07-2016, 05:02 AM   #49
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QuoteOriginally posted by Gimbal Quote
Why would it only work on modern lenses?
because the lenses need to communicate focal distance for the system to be effective

this would limit possibly limit you to lenses with KAF mounts and up

02-07-2016, 07:14 AM   #50
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You can manually input the focal length of the lens you are using into the camera. For older primes this is not a problem. Zooms are another issue altogether. Only the modern zoom send the focal length to the camera. You could wag the focal length you are at and set it manually but this is not efficient in a fast moving situation. I have successfully pulled off 1/3 second exposures using my Sigma 17-70 lens. But you still have to be steady to start with.
02-07-2016, 09:37 AM   #51
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ratcheteer Quote
because the lenses need to communicate focal distance for the system to be effective

this would limit possibly limit you to lenses with KAF mounts and up
Right, but with old manual lenses we can enter the focal length manually, as we have done since the K10d where brand new.
02-07-2016, 09:50 AM   #52
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ratcheteer Quote
sony have 5 axis stabilization in some camera's (but stabilization doesn't work with adapted and/or vintage lens)
You can't enter focal length manually on Sony cameras? That would mean that the difference between an A7 and A7II would be exactly nothing for my use. Interesting.
02-07-2016, 11:30 AM   #53
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QuoteOriginally posted by Gimbal Quote
Both Olympus and Sony uses the same type of voice coil motors and general idea for the shake reduction system as Pentax does, and if they don't have to pay licensing fees to Pentax for that, then patents are a total waist of time. Sure, they have slightly altered the layout and looks but in general it is exactly the same thing.

Pentax (at least the K5 and newer) has the hardware needed to do the same 5-axis SR as Sony and Oly but still they don't do it, lack of software apparently.
I think you may have missed something. The 5-axis systems for both Sony and Olympus are limited to their lenses having optical stabilization and are technically a hybrid approach and not IBIS. Pitch and yaw control are done in the lens coordinated by the body. With lenses lacking optical stabilization, both brands default to 3-axis IBIS.

In short, Pentax does not have the hardware to do 5-axis SR unless there is a OS lens hiding somewhere in the Pentax line. This is not something that can be addressed with firmware.


Steve

02-07-2016, 12:31 PM   #54
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
I think you may have missed something. The 5-axis systems for both Sony and Olympus are limited to their lenses having optical stabilization and are technically a hybrid approach and not IBIS. Pitch and yaw control are done in the lens coordinated by the body. With lenses lacking optical stabilization, both brands default to 3-axis IBIS.

In short, Pentax does not have the hardware to do 5-axis SR unless there is a OS lens hiding somewhere in the Pentax line. This is not something that can be addressed with firmware.


Steve
That is not my understanding of how Sonys stabilization system work, but then I'm not that into their system so I might be wrong. (I don't think so though,)

As I understand it, it does work as you say WHEN you attach a lens with stabilization. But if you use a modern lens without built in stabilization, the body will do all 5 axis of stabilization by moving the sensor. The lens has to provide focal length and focus distance. (By the way, that might be what is missing from the Pentax system, focus distance. I know modern lenses does give a hint of focus distance but perhaps resolution is to low. That I don't know).

In short, you don't need in lens stabilization to do 5 axis stabilization
You do need focal length, focus distance (for the lateral shake reduction) gyro sensors for all three axis and accelerometers for lateral movements. And a sensor that can move laterally up/ down and rotate. Pentax have all this, but perhaps the resolution for focus distance is to low though.
02-07-2016, 01:08 PM   #55
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I found this article: A Comparison of How Olympus and Sony's 5 Axis Stabilization Work which seems to explain this. Not sure how reliable the author is, I don't follow him.

But he seems to imply that 5 axis only works if the lens communicates the needed information to the camera. But the stabilization occurs in the camera not the lens. At least that is how I understand it.
02-07-2016, 07:49 PM   #56
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
Pitch and yaw control are done in the lens coordinated by the body
sounds like total marketing bs considering yaw correction done in the lens could interfere with tracking of moving subjects and pitch could cause uneven illumination in some circumstances

QuoteOriginally posted by savoche Quote
You can't enter focal length manually on Sony cameras?
correct sony doesn't allow this, they could (simple firmware update) but they want you to buy their e-mount lenses, and if Pentax were to licence and use sonys technology they would be stuck with the same limitation of not being able to manually enter the information

Last edited by Ratcheteer; 02-07-2016 at 08:32 PM. Reason: corrections
02-07-2016, 10:17 PM   #57
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QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
But he seems to imply that 5 axis only works if the lens communicates the needed information to the camera. But the stabilization occurs in the camera not the lens. At least that is how I understand it.
This is what he says explicitly regarding OS lenses:
QuoteQuote:
But what about E-mount lenses with image stabilization already built in? In situations like this, the camera and lens work together. Pitch and Yaw will be handled by the lens while the camera will do the rest.
So much for E-mount with OS.

As for other lenses, I believe you are correct. I had read this article before and had to read it through a couple of times tonight to get it straight as far as how the system works with non-OS lenses and I am still not sure I am reading correctly. I do see him saying is that with non-OS A or E-mount lenses the system will stabilize based on real time on-sensor image tracking at the AF point if both focal length and focus distance are known. For lenses unable to provide this data it sounds like Sony behaves much like Pentax. Focal length may be entered manually and the system defaults to 3-axis correction. I had read other descriptions, including the original press releases from Sony and up until today, this was the first time I understood the system this way. I just read the review on Luminous Landscape and it also seems to agree with your link.

https://luminous-landscape.com/sony-a7-mkii-hands-one/

I looked in the user manual (download from Sony) and found it to be useless for other than basic camera operation. I then did a quick survey of the various Sony-oriented forums and found confusion in the ranks. The same was true for many reviews.

QuoteOriginally posted by Ratcheteer Quote
sounds like total marketing bs...
Perhaps...

FWIW, according to the A7II manual and several reviews, you may enter the focal length for third-party lenses manually to allow limited functionality; though it is not clear whether you lose X-Y or pitch-yaw stabilization. Go figure...
02-08-2016, 12:38 AM   #58
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according to a friend, the sony's 5 axis stabilization causes some strange things to happen, the first one is skewed starbursts and the second is skewed bokeh balls, anyone know of the oly does that?
02-09-2016, 07:50 AM   #59
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I think the SR causes more problems when panning with the K3II than my K5 did. It doesn't seem to like it at all. I will need to remember to turn it off when walking along the river where I'd like to get shots of ducks and other birds in flight. I noticed a difference with the K5 but a huge "stagger" effect in the K3II images. Interesting.

On the plus side, indoors in ambient light if you can keep your hands relatively still the SR really works wonders.
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