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05-09-2016, 07:12 AM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by MyTZuS Quote
Thank you everyone for the additional comments. I've only been practicing overnight but I don't see why I got all the hate on the other forum. My main usage will only be in low light events that move fast... like a wedding. At a concert or sports event, Manual is easy so I do that. But in a wedding where you're hopping around catching the action right when it happens with unknown & variable light sources, this seems to be a life saver for this type of event!

Have to say, thanks to you guys I'll be looking more at the scenery than my screen to see how the shot exposed! Less missing opportunities, more capturing memories.
What do people think of Sv mode for weddings (indoor in particular)? At quick glance, is Sv the simplest way to insure shutter speed doesn't drop too low, causing subject motion blur?

05-09-2016, 08:50 AM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
What do people think of Sv mode for weddings (indoor in particular)? At quick glance, is Sv the simplest way to insure shutter speed doesn't drop too low, causing subject motion blur?
Most people would want to be able to have more creative control (DoF, motion freezing/blur) with wedding shots and to keep the ISO as low as possible for minimum noise. There is very little creativity to be had from controlling ISO...especially for wedding shots where high-noise images will be amply covered by the guests' phones.

With P and auto-ISO you spin whichever dial controls the creative variable you want and the rest is taken care of quicker than most people can manage manually.
05-09-2016, 08:51 AM   #18
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I'm like.... Sv mode??? Then I re-read my original post. Sorry, made a typo!!! I meant Tv which is shutter mode, not Sv which controls ISO. Sorry.

But to answer your question, yes Tv or even TAv (shutter & aperture) are the way to go to insure shutter speed. Or P mode when you use the front dial which is for your shutter.

I have to say, I find the auto ISO alarming. Pentax really, really likes to push ISO up! But without it, it drops my shutter speed like a hammer.
05-09-2016, 01:45 PM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by victormeldrew Quote
Most people would want to be able to have more creative control (DoF, motion freezing/blur) with wedding shots and to keep the ISO as low as possible for minimum noise. There is very little creativity to be had from controlling ISO...especially for wedding shots where high-noise images will be amply covered by the guests' phones.

With P and auto-ISO you spin whichever dial controls the creative variable you want and the rest is taken care of quicker than most people can manage manually.
Oh my... a typo! I was thinking shutter speed but typed Sv instead of Tv for some unknown reason. Agree, I don't see much if any point to controlling ISO at a wedding. In fact, I may have never used Sv for anything.

05-09-2016, 02:11 PM - 1 Like   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by MyTZuS Quote
I'm like.... Sv mode??? Then I re-read my original post. Sorry, made a typo!!! I meant Tv which is shutter mode, not Sv which controls ISO. Sorry.
I have to laugh a little. There was a time whan Sv meant shutter priority, back in the dark ages...


Steve
05-09-2016, 03:20 PM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
I have to laugh a little. There was a time whan Sv meant shutter priority, back in the dark ages...


Steve
It doesn't mean that any more?
05-09-2016, 03:28 PM - 1 Like   #22
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Tv is shutter (time) priority
Sv is ISO (sensitivity) priority - for which I see no godly purpose....
05-09-2016, 03:31 PM   #23
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Professional mode? Not for me, just M or TAv normally.

05-09-2016, 03:59 PM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by wtlwdwgn Quote
Professional mode? Not for me, just M or TAv normally.
M Rules with the SmartDial managing ISO.
05-09-2016, 04:07 PM - 1 Like   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by MyTZuS Quote
I find the auto ISO alarming. Pentax really, really likes to push ISO up!
With your K-3II, auto ISO behaviour will depend on which "P"rogram line you select. Some program lines will try to maintain faster shutter speeds for action or long focal lengths or if shake reduction is turned off. Check those settings to make sure your camera isn't trying to match conditions you don't intend. Program line will also play a part in aperture selection, and if you restrict the auto-ISO range, program mode will give you slower shutter speeds so you get a proper exposure. BUT, if your scene isn't pushing the limits of the selected program, your camera will select an aperture and shutter speed to keep sensitivity from going over ISO 200. That's nothing to be alarmed about.

Compared to anything but the latest FF sensors from Sony, tweaked to provide extremely high ISO values, the high ISO performance of your K-3II is top notch. Your camera is programmed to provide maximum dynamic range for the shutter speed and aperture it is set to. It costs absolutely nothing to experiment with P mode and auto-ISO and you don't have to pay attention to FUD on the Internet.
05-09-2016, 04:18 PM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by RGlasel Quote
With your K-3II, auto ISO behaviour will depend on which "P"rogram line you select.
It also depends on the auto-ISO parameters in the menu, in addition to the auto range.
You can set it to increase slowly (maintains lower ISO at the expense of slower shutter speeds) or quickly (high shutter speed at expense of noise) or standard (in between).

If you post-process then you can get away with some pretty high ISO on the K3II. I happily let it range up to 3200 as standard (with slow rate above and SR on) and will push it much higher if the situation merits it.
05-09-2016, 04:35 PM - 1 Like   #27
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You got a lot of good advice already, I'll add some remaks on P and a recommendation for TAv.

I almost always use P (with the curve adjusted to what I'm shooting), which eliminates most other needs (Hyper-Av and Hyper-Tv are just a turn on the wheel), or otherwise I use TAv (*). I would definitely recommend looking into TAv shooting: the control of 'M' plus auto-ISO, see below.

Using P, my forefinger is wired for the ISO and, most important, exposure compensation buttons without my eye leaving the viewfinder. While I use half-press and recompose (with back-button AF or manual lenses) I frequently use widely varying exposure compensation settings. By default it sits at -1/3 for me on my K-5. In critical situations I rather choose a lowish ISO, aperture according to composition (DoF) and dial down exposure comp to get the shutter speed into the range which I need. This way, I capture the maximum information in RAW and am relatively safe against blown highlights, but I do need to heavily post-process then of course of then in the +2.5EV push range.

For sports, often photographing at the limits of my equipment, I tend to use TAv. Actual resulting settings would likely not be very different from P with fast ISO curve, but it gives the little extra in terms of control: Time is determined by the speed of movement and aperture by DoF or my lense's capabilities, whichever requires the smaller. Depending on what your plans are for the wedding, considering you are used to manual settings, it might a good choice for you..

I rarely ever use M. Mainly for 'technical' documentary shots, long exposures, interval exposures or similar. Even for panoramic shots to be stiched, I simply use AEL in P.

(*) ... or X with manual flashes. And B for manually timed very long exposures, but I can count thoses B shots on one hand, I think.
05-09-2016, 06:37 PM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by RGlasel Quote
With your K-3II, auto ISO behaviour will depend on which "P"rogram line you select.
QuoteOriginally posted by victormeldrew Quote
It also depends on the auto-ISO parameters in the menu, in addition to the auto range.
That is where things get interesting and one of the reasons why auto-ISO is evil. The menu settings for auto-ISO do not mean what they seem to mean and operate semi-independent of the program line. The descriptions in the user manual should probably be taken as they are written:
  • Slow: Increases the sensitivity as little as possible
  • Normal: (Default)
  • Fast: Actively increases the sensitivity
Sounds simple enough, though not very useful for fine work or to accurately predict the outcome of making a change. Notice that there is no obvious connection to capturing motion or shutter speeds. As near as I can tell it is EV*, not shutter speed per se, that drives auto-ISO ramping. As for the effect of ISO ramping with each program line, that is easy enough to test by changing the ISO manually in Sv mode for the different program line settings. To see the effect of auto-ISO setting note the behavior in TAv Av and Tv modes for the different auto-ISO settings.

Now isn't that complicated?

My advice to both experienced and novice users is:
  • Unless you truly don't care what ISO is being used, avoid using auto-ISO. The feature throws an element of uncertainty into exposure management
  • Avoid using program line settings to manage motion capture and/or DOF. If you know enough to manage the program line feature intelligently, you also know enough to use the hyper-program feature of P-mode as well as the full range of exposure modes on your camera (Av, Tv, M, etc.)...EC too
  • Don't use auto-ISO settings in an attempt to coerce camera behavior towards a particular range of shutter speeds in P or Av modes. Every few months there is a post to this site regarding confusion as to why this does not work with Pentax when it does quite nicely on some other brand.
  • Treat P-mode as our "we are a little sloppy today" mode
  • Add auto-ISO to the mix as our "we are very sloppy today" mode


Steve

* The EV (Exposure Value) scale is a unit-less sequence of integers representing combinations of shutter speed and aperture with each step representing a halving of exposure (1 stop).

Last edited by stevebrot; 05-09-2016 at 06:58 PM.
05-09-2016, 09:46 PM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
Don't use auto-ISO settings in an attempt to coerce camera behavior towards a particular range of shutter speeds in P or Av modes.
Agreed. Trying to out-think your camera's programming is going to end badly. There is no such thing as 100% manual operation with a CMOS sensor, it is an active electronic device that changes its operating characteristics according to input from the metering system and those changes are programmed by the sensor manufacturer at a low level. None of us are going to get better performance out of the sensor in our camera than the engineers whose jobs depend on getting real measurable improvements.
QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
Unless you truly don't care what ISO is being used, avoid using auto-ISO. The feature throws an element of uncertainty into exposure management
No engineer can determine what shutter speed or aperture will work best for the shot you are trying to get, the photographer should worry about shutter speed and aperture and let the camera's programming look after sensitivity.

Your camera isn't programmed to give you noise; in the absence of knowing what the photographer is trying to capture, the camera has to be designed to give the best colour and detail possible for the light at that moment, given the shutter speed and aperture selected by the user. Perhaps there are too many "programmed" options, especially in the flagship models, and it is too easy to give your camera the wrong information about your shooting preferences, but in the end ISO setting is the last thing the user should be worrying about. Anything you do to interfere with what the camera selects for ISO is going to be wrong more often than not.

The camera buyer is always right and I'm sure that is why there are so many ways to control or constrict ISO settings, but advising other people to avoid auto ISO is wrong. If you have an irrational fear of letting the camera decide what ISO setting to use, by all means don't use auto ISO, but trying to convince others to have the same fear is doing them a real disservice.
05-09-2016, 10:27 PM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by RGlasel Quote
The camera buyer is always right and I'm sure that is why there are so many ways to control or constrict ISO settings, but advising other people to avoid auto ISO is wrong. If you have an irrational fear of letting the camera decide what ISO setting to use, by all means don't use auto ISO, but trying to convince others to have the same fear is doing them a real disservice.
My advice is based on helping resolve some very perplexing issues for dozens of users on this site whose cameras were behaving in strange ways. Probably the most common cause of unexpected exposure and flash behavior is the auto-ISO feature, particularly with the consumer line of bodies. I can't say how many threads have begun with "I can't get the shutter speed above/below "X", is my new camera broken?". Reliably, the first three or four respondents will ask, "Is auto-ISO turned on?". Another three or four will suggest cleaning the mount contacts.

QuoteOriginally posted by RGlasel Quote
Anything you do to interfere with what the camera selects for ISO is going to be wrong more often than not.
ROFL... (really am quite incredulous) I guess I make poor ISO choices an awful lot

There is nothing magic about the auto-ISO algorithms nor are they particularly sophisticated from what I have been able to determine. Most instructional books on exposure as with most photography classes stress the concept of the exposure triangle composed of aperture, time (shutter speed), and sensitivity (ISO) with all three understood and managed by the photographer.

If putting the camera on auto-pilot in regards to sensitivity is helpful for you, by all means do so. I sometimes do so myself for some shooting situations just as I sometimes use TAv mode. "Horses for courses", after all, but suggesting that using the feature has particular benefits in regards to image quality and should not be overridden is more than mildly humorous.


Steve

(...been shooting fixed ISO for some 45 years...is the least of my concerns when setting up the shot and is easily managed in real time on a dSLR...)
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